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Old 15-04-2013, 03:01   #61
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Threads like this can be compared to business confidence surveys - a survey of opinions which often turns out to be surprisingly accurate, and often much more accurate than surveying past sale figures. The figures just prior to the crash were no use in predicting prices days later.
FWIW my reading of this post seems to give me statistics that say the prices for good boats have bottomed out. Bad boats are surplus to the market and many of these will only bottom out when they are scrapped.
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Old 15-04-2013, 05:24   #62
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Thank you ArtM. So there is no conglomoration of numbers like an mls? When a surveyor values a boat, what are they using for valuation? I always figured boat "mls".

How does a buyers broker look for a boat for a buyer seeing as with commissions, seller pays, so it works best when selling a listed boat. There is no brokers only mls? I have never bought a boat with a broker, so I really have no idea with boats.
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Old 15-04-2013, 05:48   #63
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatsail View Post
"Yet without any data on boats, correlating the data is impossible to do, isn't it?"

I agree. This is exactly why I ask for actual data earlier in the thread. My posting of data is to prove that I will not speculate on what I cannot prove. I want to see actual numbers, not here say and opinion.
So how did you go about pricing your boat before buying?
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Old 15-04-2013, 11:10   #64
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

It would be nice if there were a better infrastructure for boat sales, and a transparent market, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
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Old 15-04-2013, 11:29   #65
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

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So how did you go about pricing your boat before buying?
Hard.... but many go with the advertised price elsewhere of the same model. Of course this is total BS, because the brokers seem to be as optimistic as the owners!
There have been and continue to be some great bargains out there, but you have to know what you want and be ready to act! Examples:
*Catalina 27, newer yanmar diesel. Started at $6000, went to $4500, then to $3200. Owner gave it away to the local boatyard as he was moving out of state!
*Tollycraft 34 sedan. $3500 needed one engine replaced. Sold immediately.
* Islander 37 Pilothouse. Newer sails, furling, electrical. Perkins ran good, No blisters. Needed new upholstery, lifelines and a good cleaning. Started $12500 sold $9000
* Older Islander 36. New Yanmar 3GM30, New rigging, new sails, new furler. Needed deck painted as the owner touched it up. medical issues sale: Donated for $6000 value after unable to sell quickly...
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Old 15-04-2013, 14:37   #66
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

So, new boat owner decides to moor in a marina.
Mooring fee say $2,500 p.a. at 5% interest could pay for $50,000 capital.
$50 worth of time per week on the boat = another $2500 or $50,000 capital forgone.

i.e. Owning a boat in a marina could cost $100,000 worth of capital opportunity.

1/. Why would anyone buy your boat?
2/. Giving it away is a bargain.
3/. Getting paid for = laughing all the way to the bank.
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Old 15-04-2013, 14:54   #67
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

DumnMad:

Given that the world doesn't quite work that way, is everyone crazy, or is your valuation model wrong? Hint: it's probably the latter.

Completely beside the point, but where have you seen a passive (no time, no risk) investment opportunity at 5% pa?
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Old 15-04-2013, 15:20   #68
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Redherring indeed. Agree that everyone is crazy, but, collectively quite bright.(Like ants.)

Some make 10% or even 20% on their investments. They lose it all when they die.

"Completely beside the point, but where have you seen a passive (no time, no risk) investment opportunity at 5% pa?"
Can't believe a boatie would look for a "passive no risk......" thing.
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Old 15-04-2013, 15:28   #69
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

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Originally Posted by RedHerring View Post
DumnMad:

Given that the world doesn't quite work that way, is everyone crazy, or is your valuation model wrong? Hint: it's probably the latter.

Completely beside the point, but where have you seen a passive (no time, no risk) investment opportunity at 5% pa?
His numbers are off, but he has a point about carrying costs. Most boat sellers have a tendency to forget the costs of owning a depreciating asset when they set their prices higher than market.

The smart move would be to price it a little low and move it.
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Old 15-04-2013, 18:17   #70
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

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Thank you ArtM. So there is no conglomoration of numbers like an mls? When a surveyor values a boat, what are they using for valuation? I always figured boat "mls".

How does a buyers broker look for a boat for a buyer seeing as with commissions, seller pays, so it works best when selling a listed boat. There is no brokers only mls? I have never bought a boat with a broker, so I really have no idea with boats.
Home sales are listed with a government agency and are public information. Anyone can get that data at any time. I don't know if boat sales are the same. Even if there were, there is such huge variability depending on age, condition, known problems, equipment, timing, etc that will never be reflected in the public record.

I own a home in a tract neighborhood. There are 5 other identical homes, and 20 other similar homes - all built at the same time by the same people from the same materials. Any upgrades I might have made are minor, and of easily established value - an improved deck, vinyl siding, cul-de-sac lot, extra bedroom.

Brokers with many years experience, who do heavy volume, or who can share data with other brokers will have that kind of information to a limited degree, but I don't know if they are allowed to share it openly.

Here is a method I've suggested in the past which I use to buy cars:
1) Decide what you want to spend (which will be too little the first couple of times)
2) Look for the BEST boat you can get with that money. Just make offers on boats you like.
3) If you can't find a boat you like for that amount of money, then back to (1).

Good time to buy? Right time to sell? These are boats. They are sometimes luxury items, sometimes toys, occasionally a person's home - the right time to buy is when the buyer is financially and personally ready to buy, he is not going to wait 15 years for a better market. The right time to sell is always "now" because the holding costs of boats are so high. Holding for a better market rarely makes sense.
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Old 15-04-2013, 18:19   #71
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

NOBODY buys boats for investment - not even the charter companies will own their equipment.
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Old 15-04-2013, 20:10   #72
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

May be a buyers' market but it still seems like caveat emptor to me. Lots of 30 year old 28-30' boats out there that look like they are well maintained but who has enough money to survey all of them? Not me....
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Old 15-04-2013, 23:56   #73
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

I bought my last boat from a charity. I tracked it on Yachtworld, from $23K, to $21K, to $17K. Called the broker to find out where it went, offered $8500 and got it. I offered too much, probably could have had it for $6000.
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Old 17-04-2013, 02:38   #74
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatsail View Post
Thank you ArtM. So there is no conglomoration of numbers like an mls? When a surveyor values a boat, what are they using for valuation? I always figured boat "mls".

How does a buyers broker look for a boat for a buyer seeing as with commissions, seller pays, so it works best when selling a listed boat. There is no brokers only mls? I have never bought a boat with a broker, so I really have no idea with boats.
It appears to me that any broker can sell any listed boat and will get paid for it. I don't understand exactly how they manage this, but I do very often see boats crosslisted across multiple websites. "My" broker tells me that it is not his listing, and that he does not know the listing broker, but that somehow he knows that it is "okay" for him to list it, and he'll get some kind of cut. "My" broker didn't seem to want to go into detail and I didn't press him on it, I wasn't that serious at the time anyway.

I don't think it is regulated like US real estate brokers though, because often the boats are listed out of the country by a foreign listing broker.
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Old 17-04-2013, 09:13   #75
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Re: Is it still a Buyer's Market?

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It appears to me that any broker can sell any listed boat and will get paid for it. I don't understand exactly how they manage this, but I do very often see boats crosslisted across multiple websites. "My" broker tells me that it is not his listing, and that he does not know the listing broker, but that somehow he knows that it is "okay" for him to list it, and he'll get some kind of cut. "My" broker didn't seem to want to go into detail and I didn't press him on it, I wasn't that serious at the time anyway.

I don't think it is regulated like US real estate brokers though, because often the boats are listed out of the country by a foreign listing broker.
No mystery. It is very similar to Real Estate. Any broker can sell any listing. If you like your broker then he will track down the boats that he thinks will be suitable and show them to you.

If you see a boat that you think you might like, let him know and same thing.
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