Internet

[Sandero]

We are sailing in southern NE and use a mobile hotspot from smart phone for internet. Works fine. We never are in marinas...

[masonc]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed! You may get all kinds of signals from visiting boats, which are entirely innocent. You'll get AT LEAST two from my boat -- the GoFree nav network, which has nothing to do with Internet of any kind, and my Huawei 593 LTE router, which distributes a mobile phone internet connection around the boat, and gives access to media and files. Neither of these has anything to do with your marina system!

Actually is has everything to do with the marina's WiFi system. THere's only three channels in the 2.4Ghz band, so every WiFi device is clogging the available bandwidth. That's why a good WiFi controller monitors for rogue access points and devices. You can't have good WiFi unless you have control of the devices being used. As long as the devices connect to your WiFi network, a good controller has the ability to manage them. It will push devices with 5Ghz capability up to that band where there are far more channels, and will push them to closer access points. That's the technology you pay for in a commercial system.
As long as there are a ton of rogue access points in the marina, no-one will be able to get a stable network connection as the access points will spend most of their time waiting for access to the channel.
In a properly designed and managed marina WiFi solution, you would offer a well distributed access point system with a good controller, and you would police for rogue devices. You would not allow 2.4Ghz networks in the marina. Then everyone would get good WiFi/Internet and you would have happy customers, and probably some revenue.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by masonc

Actually is has everything to do with the marina's WiFi system. THere's only three channels in the 2.4Ghz band, so every WiFi device is clogging the available bandwidth. That's why a good WiFi controller monitors for rogue access points and devices. You can't have good WiFi unless you have control of the devices being used. As long as the devices connect to your WiFi network, a good controller has the ability to manage them. It will push devices with 5Ghz capability up to that band where there are far more channels, and will push them to closer access points. That's the technology you pay for in a commercial system.
As long as there are a ton of rogue access points in the marina, no-one will be able to get a stable network connection as the access points will spend most of their time waiting for access to the channel.
In a properly designed and managed marina WiFi solution, you would offer a well distributed access point system with a good controller, and you would police for rogue devices. You would not allow 2.4Ghz networks in the marina. Then everyone would get good WiFi/Internet and you would have happy customers, and probably some revenue.

I don't think that was the problem which was being discussed, but of course, you are correct here.

The only thing I have to disagree with, however, is the characterization of internal wifi networks on boats as "rogue". Most reasonably sophisticated cruising boats these days have internal wifi networks -- that's an absolutely normal use, and there's nothing "roguish" about it. Why, most chart plotters these days have wifi nodes, all smart phones have capability of being used as wifi hotspots, and etc. and etc. and etc. No way in the world you could prohibit boats with internal networks coming in, or you would lose half your clientele.

That's just modern life. When I connect to marina wifi, I always use 5ghz when it's available. That's why I retired my Ubiquiti Bullet in favor of the Microtek Groove. If 5ghz is not available, you can be almost sure that you won't get a usable connection. That's just the reality of those bands in the modern world.

I also use my internal router on 5ghz -- when I can. But I often have people on board who need to connect a device without that capability. And the GoFree module doesn't have 5ghz at all -- and in every marina you can see multiple GoFree units -- or their Raymarine or Garmin equivalents -- being used, sometimes dozens. There is no way to fight this.

[masonc]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The only thing I have to disagree with, however, is the characterization of internal wifi networks on boats as "rogue".

It's not my characterization, it is the industry-speak description for access points operating with range of your network that are not permitted.

Consider security on a large corporate campus installation, the IT people expect that they own the only network. A rogue device could be encouraging users to connect so they can grab the packets for data theft. Rogue device detection is important for security.
Look at the Rogue Device page from my home Ruckus system.


In the case of networks that are in nearby buildings outside of your control, you can mark them as known.

[masonc]

Originally Posted by GMN

The unit works remarkably well and I can attest to that from years of personal experience with it. It was designed with long distance WiFi connectivity in mind. My personal record is 2nm for WiFi connectivity.

So here's the technical issue with this. WiFi was designed to be a short range protocol. It expect to hear back from the corresponding device in a very short time. Long range transmissions take a long time, comparatively. For every packet that is exchanged in TCP, an acknowledgment is sent in the form of an ACK packet. If the ACK packet is not received within the time window, the packet is sent again, and again, and again ad infinitum. A long distance user thinks they have solved a problem by using a super antenna, but they are likely inflicting a terrible toll on the corresponding network. The access point is spending time and bandwidth trying to complete each packet exchange that could be better used serving the local users. that's why range extenders and other tricks may serve the user well but screws up the network for everyone else.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by masonc

It's not my characterization, it is the industry-speak description for access points operating with range of your network that are not permitted.

Consider security on a large corporate campus installation, the IT people expect that they own the only network. A rogue device could be encouraging users to connect so they can grab the packets for data theft. Rogue device detection is important for security.
Look at the Rogue Device page from my home Ruckus system.


In the case of networks that are in nearby buildings outside of your control, you can mark them as known.

OK, but I still disagree with characterizing boat networks as "rogue". The terminology and, indeed, ideology of the current state of network administration, does not at all account for the real situation with boats, which are not buildings, and thus move around, and thus cannot always be marked "known".


Any attempt of a marina to prohibit the use of wifi-equipped chart plotters and such, and internal networks on boats is simply a joke. This is totally normal usage, and the marina network administrators simply have to take such usage into account in designing and managing their systems. In practical terms, it probably means that users will have to possess and use 5ghz capability to get a usable connection -- what I am finding more and more.

[jibstay]

Originally Posted by RTB

Sorry Pal! You are part of the reason this thread exists!!! Our marina prohibits the use of extenders, amplifiers, and boosters. You apparently don't advise users of your equipment how the use can effect other boaters around you?

We've been running smoothly for a couple of months, but as more boats (and new signals) are showing up, we're back to internet problems. It's getting old. I had a customer report a neighbor today, since things turned to crap after their arrival. There are obvious antennas on the boat not related to vhf.

I went to his boat and asked what was up. He claimed to only have a router that allowed him to access internet with his 4 computers at the same time. Now, does a router show up as a signal if I'm looking at signals on an iPhone? I think not. So he is lying, right? I'm going to start kicking people out of the marina if they can't respect our rules. Period!

Tired of this crap!!!

WiFi Access Points, or WiFi Routers, can be configured to not broadcast their SSID (Service Set Identifier) in their beacons and then will not show up on your iPhone.

So, your neighbor may not be lying.

[masonc]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Any attempt of a marina to prohibit the use of wifi-equipped

It's really easy
"Why isn't the WiFI working, I have a lot of work to do"
"Because the guy on S/V CaptRon has a rogue router that is interfering with your WiFi but refuses to turn it off".

S/V CaptRon mysteriously sinks that night.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by masonc

It's really easy
"Why isn't the WiFI working, I have a lot of work to do"
"Because the guy on S/V CaptRon has a rogue router that is interfering with your WiFi but refuses to turn it off".

S/V CaptRon mysteriously sinks that night.

I see that the term "rogue", is, after all, being used with quite a load of extra meaning and emotional content.

Eh, the scenario is ridiculously unrealistic. One boat's own router (own = "rogue") by itself is not going to cause the problem, and you won't be able to solve a dysfunctional marina wifi system by shutting down just one of the dozens of own-boat wifi systems which you'll find in any marina. S/V Capt Ron and half (or more) of all the other boats in the marina will have some kind of internal wifi equipment. No one is going to go around to every boat trying to get all that various equipment shut down, and there is certainly not going to be any sinking going on.

A marina wifi system which depends on everyone in the marina shutting down their B&G Go Frees, Raymarine wifi chart plotters, cell phone hotspots, MIFI devices, internal file server networks, and God knows what else, is not fit for purpose. Did I leave anything out? Don't Tick Tack wind instruments and Furuno wireless radars, also use 2.4ghz wifi? And anyway, no one, certainly not anyone with a brain, depends on random marina wifi for his work, when everyone has reliable mobile data in his pocket.

To the extent that the problem can't be solved by other means (good distribution of an adequate number of AP's, proper setup, so the signals are stronger than S/V Capt Ron's chart plotter), marinas should encourage users to connect at 5ghz, and warn them that their connections may not be adequate at 2.4. Savvy cruisers who even care about marina wifi, already know that.

[masonc]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

One boat's own router (own = "rogue") by itself is not going to cause the problem,

Absolutely is the main problem.
I didn't say it would solve a dysfunctional system, I said that it would be a part of creating a well managed system. There's no point installing $100,000 WiFi system then having every yobo run their own network, you will have a cacophony of wireless systems stepping all over each other. I don't care if it is practical to solve this problem, that's not my problem. If you want to know how to build a working high reliability WiFi network in a marina, this is how.

[Sawbonz]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I struggle with the same issues on my boat -- mostly because guests come with computers set up to automatically download gigabytes of OS and program updates. I'd like a program which could set not only bandwidth limits, but total data volume limits, and let me see how much each user is using. I have seen expensive and complicated commercial solutions for this, but nothing which would be reasonable for my use. Might be ok for you, though.

I have recently installed Tomato firmware on my home router with the purpose of running a VPN and noticed that it does have the capability of limiting bandwidth per device as well as QOS. I'm not sure about data limits. But that's a home solution. In my RV I had a Cradlepoint router that can do all of that and more. It is designed for robustness redundancy and costs proportionately more. Mine would accept two SIMs from different cell carriers and let you switch between them fairly quickly.

[RickG]

Our marina near DC, Herrington Harbor North, contracted with the folks at https://onspotwifi.com/ to put in a marina-wide system this spring. This is a large marina with docks that span a half mile of water line. The system provides both 2.4GHz and 5GHz connections at each access point and they put a couple of access points on each dock.

How well does it work? There were some shakedown issues, but the vendor seems responsive. They added some access points and moved a few. It works pretty well now, but I still get some performance weirdness on some of the access points. I don't know if they are running QoS, but I can see 15Mpbs+ throughput and then it will drop below 1Mbps. There could be a lot of explanations for that, but this happens during very quiet times during the week with few liveaboards. It smells like some kind of rate limiting. Performance is pretty much the same on busy weekends. Ultimately, the limiting factor will be the upstream connection to the Internet.

The biggest reliability challenge are some boats with wifi amplifiers turned on. I have a 2.4GHz Ubiquiti Bullet that I run without the amplifier enabled and I can see a dozen high power amplifiers when I do a scan. The bad news is that these amplifiers make the longer distance 2.4GHz spectrum quite noisy. The good news is that the access points support 5GHz and performance is reasonable over the 50 feet from my boat to the closest access point.

When my boat project list gets shorter, I would like to look at a dual 2.4GHz/5GHz antenna solution so I can aggregate all of my systems onto a single onboard wireless network and route that network through the onspot system. The Ubiqiti products support either 2.4 or 5, not both and my Bullet is 2.4GHz; 2.4GHz is just too noisy for everyday use. I know there are solutions out there, I just need to find something that does not require a lot of rework.

We become liveaboards at the end of this month. At this point, the wifi network is good enough for me to work from the boat most of the time, especially during the day during the week. My AT&T MiFi and phone tethering are my backups and they are reliable on and off the dock. As a technology worker, good Internet is an absolute requirement.

Cheers, RickG

[zeehag]

we have found here in mazatlan the adapters are not facing proper direction for delivery of interwebzzz to the marina tennants..oopsy. not even a booster will fix that stupidity.......
\oh, but the boats donot need wifi..hahahahaha

[idylours]

how did people ever manage to cruise before the Internet or is this crusing thing new

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by masonc

It's not my characterization, it is the industry-speak description for access points operating with range of your network that are not permitted.

So the home network of the house across the creek is rogue? The business next door? The onboard nav network of your customer? Good network management means dealing with reality, and the reality is lots of networks on limited WiFi channels.