Intelligent Discussion on Ferro

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by BillAU

(...) so I think I would go with Geoff on paint remover and a good scraper, then washing down...I would be much slower but, I believe for me, safer too(...)

G'Day Bill,

But will the chemical stripper not penetrate the cement? Asking because I did screw up some of my varnishing woodwork - used the stripper, YES washed the wood very well, and yet - the new varnish peeled off and I had to strip again, wash again EXTREMELY THOROUGHLY and then I had to varnish again.

So, all depends on how porous the cement is. If any of the stripper remains, the new paint will not stick.

What about the heat gun?

It seems that judicious use of heat gun is accepted for woodwork/varnish. Maybe it can be applied to FC / paint hull too? Material cost very low too - one heatgun will probably see you thru the whole job.

?
b.

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

G'Day Bill,

But will the chemical stripper not penetrate the cement? Asking because I did screw up some of my varnishing woodwork - used the stripper, YES washed the wood very well, and yet - the new varnish peeled off and I had to strip again, wash again EXTREMELY THOROUGHLY and then I had to varnish again.

So, all depends on how porous the cement is. If any of the stripper remains, the new paint will not stick.

G'day Barnie, I honestly don't know about the chemical stripper penetrating a cement hull, from all I've read, Ferro Cement is completely impervious to water penetration, if it were not, I'm sure all FC boat owners would spend a lot of time pumping bilges while trying to keep their boats afloat
So I'm guessing a chemical stripper would not penetrate deep into the hull and could be removed by washing with metho, then wash with clean water.

Originally Posted by barnakiel

What about the heat gun?

It seems that judicious use of heat gun is accepted for woodwork/varnish. Maybe it can be applied to FC / paint hull too? Material cost very low too - one heatgun will probably see you thru the whole job.

?
b.

Last time I made the mistake of using a torch on concrete, the concrete exploded Perhaps one of those electric heat guns, no flame, would give a better/safer result I guess it's worth thinking about.
With a repair I seen carried out on a FC hull, the owner used a hammer, chissel and grinder to cut-out the damaged area, he did not cut-out any steel or wire, he simply cleaned out the damaged FC, down to the wire, inside and out, then placed a section of ply over the inside of the hole before plastering...I did not see how he finished the job paint wise...Nor the plastering/painting inside the hull.
Nowhere around our area do I know of anyone owning a FC boat, so the only advice I get on FC boats is...Forget about it, buy a glass, steel or alloy boat, (depending on what their boat is built from) and you won't go far wrong...Those blokes have never owned or sailed a FC boat so how can they give advice on the matter

Bill

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Bill, I found this FC yacht a while back and thought if my world ever went pear shaped I would look for something like this. She is in the wrong location for you but for the asking price at £13.5k, seems very good.

Some of the FC designs have all the appeal of a double decker bus but this one looks like a yacht. No idea how she sails but fin and skeg should have reasonable performance. Certainly a good size for the harbours and marinas in Europe were costs can be just breath taking.

S/Y Crystal: Hartley 32 Ferro Cement Sloop

Pete

No connection to her btw.

G'day Pete,

I would like something like this Dutch Pro built FC Samson based 46'er below,

The problem is, she's on the East Coast of Central America and I'm in Oz and, as I have said, I can't get away at present.

Cheers Pete,

Bill

[BillAU]

G'day mates,

It would seem the information on sandblasting a FC hull is not correct. Aparently you can have a FC hull sandblasted, provided the person doing the blasting knows what he's doing. I have just read the blog of Cap'n Jack He had his FC hull sandblasted. His boat was twenty years old at the time and had already sailed 120K. Since sandblasting the hull, Cap'n Jack and his wife have sailed a further 20k hard miles in Southern Oceans in his FC yacht, Banyanda. After having the hull sandblasted, he soaked the clean hull in raw epoxy the same day.
I wish people like Cap'n Jack and his wife would post information here, they built their FC yacht, Banyanda, in their backyard back in 1970/73, have sailed her around the world and are still sailing her to this day, and Banyanda is a good looking FC yacht. Anyway, they know what they're talking about...Where as I'm going by what I've read around the net

Bill
Australia

[ozskip]

Originally Posted by BillAU

First, I am no expert in FC boats but I imagine the first signs of a problem with the steel frame in any FC boats would be rust stains. Now, from my research and understanding of FC boats, rust stains "should" never appear because the steel frame is in-closed with the FC but nothing last forever, so if the FC coating, say on the gunwale's, has become worn or is damaged, and water can get to the steel framework, then that would show-up as rust stains. Rightly or wrongly, I believe if the damage is not severe, the damaged/worn area of FC could be cleaned-up and repaired using the proper FC mix, the specifications being:


1 part Portland cement
2 parts aggregate (1/3 sand; 2/3 gravel)
1 part water


Also gained from reading articles of building FC boats, I don't believe "lightly" rusted steel in the framework would be dangerous or disastrous for the boat. From what I've read, during building, rusting of the steel is preferable/stronger than clean steel, I've read, “Due to a chemical reaction between the lightly rusted steel framework and the FC, the FC bonds better and stronger”


As for why all boats/yachts are not built using the FC system? Not everyone can work with cement or mortar and get a good end result, nor can a lot of people get the steel framework right. On top of that, “if” a builder does get the framework right and true, he/she must then find a “team” of “good” plasters to get the hull plastered in one go! (I don't believe one man, or woman, could plaster a 35' and bigger yacht frame in one go on their own, never mind getting the hull fair) I guess companies building steel, alloy and fibreglass boats can get their boats out the door much quicker and cheaper than they could if they were building FC boats, that means more money in “their” pockets but that's only my views.


One more thing, during my search I have found a lot of FC built yachts and...They are all over the world...So I'm guessing they must have got from their build site to the foreign ports where they now are offered for sale by being sailed their by their owners/skippers.


Remember also...Many people fall in love with the “idea/dream” of living on their own boats, living a life of luxury while cruising calm tropical seas but, after buying/building and living aboard their boats for a time, sometimes quite a short amount of time, they find their dream is far from the reality of owning and living aboard their own boat, so they sell their dream and return to a life more familiar. i.e. living ashore, hiring a boat for a holiday afloat and handing the boat back after they get their sea fix.
Any and all boats needs work to keep them up to scratch, sometimes that means lots of hard work and, far from cruising calm tropical seas all the time, the sea can be a fearful place to be at times. I know from my experience at sea, there were quite a few times when I found myself wishing I was safely tucked-up in my cot ashore but...We had no choice but to ride-out the storm and thankfully make landfall safely. By the way, when I experienced those storms, I was aboard a 40,000 + ton, 14,000HP diesel engine steel ship but it was still frighting for me and...I believe anyone who says “I wasn't frightened in that hurricane” Well...I just don't believe them. It must have been pure hell for anyone on a small yacht, (any boat smaller than our ship) to have been caught in any of those storms and I hope they all made it safely ashore.


Cheers,


Bill
Australia

I only wish you would stop defending fc as with a statement like this you have no or little knowedge of this type of construction as there is no gravel used in the mix

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by ozskip

I only wish you would stop defending fc as with a statement like this you have no or little knowedge of this type of construction as there is no gravel used in the mix

G'day ozskip,

As I stated at the start of my offending post...First, I am no expert in FC boats...So I searched the net for information on FC boat construction and found a blog (Marine surveys, Captain Alan Hugenot San Francisco, CA Home/) providing information on FC boats, among other things to do with boats, and with his qualifications I believed he knew what he was talking about, seems I was wrong to believe a registered boat surveyor and...A ship Captain to boot, so thanks for putting me straight.

I obtained the information on the Ferro Cement mix from that blog owned by CAPTAIN ALAN HUGENOT, a NAVAL ARCHITECT - MARINE SURVEYOR, you can read his blog at: Marine surveys, Captain Alan Hugenot San Francisco, CA Home/
Have a look at his article dated, 15 October 2009, headed, FERRO-CEMENT BOAT CONSTRUCTION:

I published the found information on his FC mix "before" I purchased the book, Ferro-cement Boats by Colin Brookes. mSNAME. advIFIC. of Hartley & Brookes Boat Designs. (Mr Brookes makes no mention of gravel in the mix) I could be wrong...Again but I think Mr Brookes, after 40 some-odd years of designing, building, repairing and surveying ferro cement boats, knows what he's talking about but we novices, to ferro cement boats, can always learn more about FC boats from another FC expert, such as yourself, so please, do keep sharing your knowledge of FC boats with us FC novices.

Bill
Australia

[BillAU]

I found this article on FC fishing boats and thought it would be of interest to others as I'm sure the same applies to sail boats.
The Article:

[AussieGeoff]

Bill, the mortar mix of choice for yacht's, both construction and repair seems to be cement, fine, washed sand and water.

It would be difficult to fine the finish with aggregate or other coarse material in the mix. I've not yet read the site, but it's possible the mix with the aggregate is for more substantial, ie larger, commercial type hulls where structural strength is more important than a fine finish, or it could simply be an error.

The Colin Brookes book you mention is probably the best reference for yachts as opposed to other sources, I've yet to buy my copy, but it's on my 'get' list.

The FAO Organisation document on ferrocement fishing vessels is also useful. I downloaded a copy.

Just my 2c

AussieGeoff

[BillAU]

Originally Posted by AussieGeoff

Bill, the mortar mix of choice for yacht's, both construction and repair seems to be cement, fine, washed sand and water.

It would be difficult to fine the finish with aggregate or other coarse material in the mix. I've not yet read the site, but it's possible the mix with the aggregate is for more substantial, ie larger, commercial type hulls where structural strength is more important than a fine finish, or it could simply be an error.

The Colin Brookes book you mention is probably the best reference for yachts as opposed to other sources, I've yet to buy my copy, but it's on my 'get' list.

The FAO Organisation document on ferrocement fishing vessels is also useful. I downloaded a copy.

Just my 2c

AussieGeoff

G'day Geoff,
I think Colin Brookes new book is the best source of information on FC boats I've read to date and I think you should get your copy ASAP, you'll find a ton of real helpful information, not only on the history, building and repairing FC boats, Colin also includes a pretty useful section on cabinetry/woodwork, if you decide to change/repair/build anything on your FC boat, the book will be real helpful mate

Bill
Australia

[clockwork orange]

Of course you dont use agregate in the mix, it would be impossible to use, when you have 8 layers or so of mesh there is not much open space left, anyone who has actually built a ferro boat would know that. If Mr Hugenot thinks you use agregate he has clearly not built a ferro boat either,however it is possible he was refering to a mix to pour in the keel with punchings which i suppose you could do,although i dont know why. When i built my RORC 39 in the early 70s i worked, along with a bunch of other builder/friends as a grunt for Ev Sayers and crew mixing the plaster and humping it up to them as they plastered it, i bought the bags of mortar mix from a company that mixed the dry ingredients which was basically washed sand, portland cement and pozzolan in the correct proportions, specifically for ferro boats, the plastering was done by the 2 shot method. I was involved in this way in the plastering of about 5 boats, good times.
Steve.

[clockwork orange]

Incidently, when plastering, after working the mortar through the mesh with steel and wood trowels and floats the final finish was done with a sponge to remove the inevitable trowel marks, the Sayers were a fine plastering team.
Steve.

[samfreeland]

Originally Posted by BillAU

G'day mates,

It would seem the information on sandblasting a FC hull is not correct. Aparently you can have a FC hull sandblasted, provided the person doing the blasting knows what he's doing. I have just read the blog of Cap'n Jack He had his FC hull sandblasted. His boat was twenty years old at the time and had already sailed 120K. Since sandblasting the hull, Cap'n Jack and his wife have sailed a further 20k hard miles in Southern Oceans in his FC yacht, Banyanda. After having the hull sandblasted, he soaked the clean hull in raw epoxy the same day.
I wish people like Cap'n Jack and his wife would post information here, they built their FC yacht, Banyanda, in their backyard back in 1970/73, have sailed her around the world and are still sailing her to this day, and Banyanda is a good looking FC yacht. Anyway, they know what they're talking about...Where as I'm going by what I've read around the net

Bill
Australia

the sand blaster must of had the finest of touch and a lot of concentration cos with only 2-3mills of cement to play with you wouldn't want to linger for a second in one spot. im not saying its impossible but you certainly wouldn't want a cowboy doing it.i see there blasting old cars with crushed walnut shells.

[atoll]

my old ferro 48 ft hartley tahitian is for sale again in gocek turkey if any body is interested in a cheap boat,had lots of work done on it by the current owner
photos here http://boudicca1.weebly.com/

eBay - The UK's Online Marketplace

[davidtward]

Just trying to contact BillAU.

Did you ever get to look at that Sampson 46 in Guatemala?

I am looking for a cruising / live aboard and have the same problem as you... too far to just nip over and see it.

Do you know which yard built it?

thanks

[jm21]

Hello All,

We looked at a FC boat launched 1989, home built. Builder had built 2 smaller FC boats previously. We are concerned first with the quality as a home built hull, and if he had enough people on it at the time, but also that the deck and cabin were FC as well, which seems like it would make the boat very top heavy and potentially dangerous to sail. They claim it was a Samson design but the cabin trunk seems to have been designed by the builder. The broker has the displacement listed at 85,000 pounds which seems really really high, even for a large boat (49-55 on deck, had several different numbers listed).

Should we just run away? We're not considering the boat TOO seriously but it does have some things we really like.

1989 Ferro Cement Sloop Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

We have seen the boat and seems very solid. Lots of cosmetic problems but seems like it would be really low upkeep and it's set up to use generic land-based stuff for most things which makes replacement easier/cheaper.

Hopefully we can limit this just to talk about the FC aspects of the boat and design/construction.