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16-11-2019, 05:22
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#76
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 11,832
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
Quote:
Originally Posted by bushytales
Well, if you’re buying a yacht, relax and enjoy. Solar panels will run most sailing boats - and the wind is free. Just do it and worry about all those other issues when you finally get back....
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Fitting out a new boat I'd like to last for 50 years without major changes to the systems. Hence, the thread.
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16-11-2019, 05:28
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#77
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2019
Boat: A185F, Mystic 30’ Cutter
Posts: 705
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu
Fitting out a new boat I'd like to last for 50 years without major changes to the systems. Hence, the thread.
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You’re going to probably have a major electronics upgrade every 10yrs if you push it
Probably if you’re using the boat a good bit a engine overhaul/repower every 15yrs
Standing rigging depending on use, not sure that would see 50yrs old for use in any real wind
Sails sure as heck won’t make 50yrs, probably what a set every 10yrs? About the same for running rigging I’d think.
Bearings and throughhulls 5-10yrs as well as Misc hoses
I’d imagine the hull and wood work and spars and stuff like that would be just fine over that period though.
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16-11-2019, 05:45
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#78
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lake Ont
Posts: 8,547
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu
Fitting out a new boat I'd like to last for 50 years without major changes to the systems. Hence, the thread.
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Electronics - no way; you'll be changing those every 10 years if not more frequently.
Propulsion: I think that if you were doing this exercise 40 years ago, you could select an engine and drivetrain that would last (with rebuilds) for closer to 50 years, with parts and expertise still available. But this stuff seems to be changing and evolving faster these days.
I guess the starting point would be to try to find an industrial diesel engine that's popular and reliable, and likely to remain in wide use for a while, then seek out a marinized version.
Apparently the small VW car diesels are common and well-supported. A friend has a marinized one in his boat, and he was able to buy a rebuilt one from a specialist remanufacturer in Detroit at a pretty reasonable price.
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16-11-2019, 05:51
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#79
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2019
Boat: A185F, Mystic 30’ Cutter
Posts: 705
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect
Electronics - no way; you'll be changing those every 10 years if not more frequently.
Propulsion: I think that if you were doing this exercise 40 years ago, you could select an engine and drivetrain that would last (with rebuilds) for closer to 50 years, with parts and expertise still available. But this stuff seems to be changing and evolving faster these days.
I guess the starting point would be to try to find an industrial diesel engine that's popular and reliable, and likely to remain in wide use for a while, then seek out a marinized version.
Apparently the small VW car diesels are common and well-supported. A friend has a marinized one in his boat, and he was able to buy a rebuilt one from a specialist remanufacturer in Detroit at a pretty reasonable price.
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Seems lots of the old out of production yanmars are still getting rebuilt
I’d imagine lots of it is generic sized parts, might even be able to roll your own gaskets, but for what a used OHed sub 50hp diesel goes for, or even new, might just be easier to repower every 10-15yrs with whatever the kool kids have
Not sure if this carries over from aviation, but I’d stick to marine engines and stay away from auto conversion stuff
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16-11-2019, 06:09
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#80
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 11,832
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
It's already got outboards so I can easily change with the times.
I'm concerned with everything else.
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16-11-2019, 06:14
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#81
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 11,832
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernMac
You’re going to probably have a major electronics upgrade every 10yrs if you push it
Probably if you’re using the boat a good bit a engine overhaul/repower every 15yrs
Standing rigging depending on use, not sure that would see 50yrs old for use in any real wind
Sails sure as heck won’t make 50yrs, probably what a set every 10yrs? About the same for running rigging I’d think.
Bearings and throughhulls 5-10yrs as well as Misc hoses
I’d imagine the hull and wood work and spars and stuff like that would be just fine over that period though.
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Not my first day on the water so I've designed out a lot of this stuff. No thru hulls, already has outboards. I see the rigging as being the thing that needs overhauling.
I'm concerned regarding the systems. HVAC, cooking, hot water, refrigeration, etc. These ultimately can be more independent of land (and way more expensive and complicated) dependent on land and simple/cheap. Like induction cooktop vs lpg for example.
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16-11-2019, 06:37
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#82
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2019
Boat: A185F, Mystic 30’ Cutter
Posts: 705
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu
Not my first day on the water so I've designed out a lot of this stuff. No thru hulls, already has outboards. I see the rigging as being the thing that needs overhauling.
I'm concerned regarding the systems. HVAC, cooking, hot water, refrigeration, etc. These ultimately can be more independent of land (and way more expensive and complicated) dependent on land and simple/cheap. Like induction cooktop vs lpg for example.
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How do outboards do running 8+ hrs a day? I’d think a outboard gas engine would be more prone to issues than a simple inboard diesel with no electronics for the most part?
If you solved the problem of running a AC system without shore/gen set Id love to hear it before I pull the trigger on a heat pump in a month or two, seems to me if you want heat or AC outside from shore, you’re burning some type of fuel, if not I’d love hear how.
Electronics/nav are going to be aged out in a decade or less, sails and lines the same, as well as anything that has seals or uses compression/vacuum, it’ll be rebuild or replace time, I’d wager the rudder will be rebuilt too well before 50yrs, plexiglass crazing in a salty working environment will be more like every decade or less, repaint/seal every 10-15yrs.
Seems to me boats, for the most part, are a constant IRAN (inspect or replace as necessary), personally I’d like to see more tracking of hours and dates for replacement schedules, I’d wager any boat will last well longer than her capt with proper maintenance, but stuffs going to get swapped out, ESPECIALLY batteries, solar, motors and the higher the tech, unless you’re going to put it in a climate controlled museum.
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16-11-2019, 07:37
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#83
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 2,460
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
I would expect Diesel to be available for a long long time for boating given huge number of powerboats compared to sailboats being sold. That’s where the industry is powerful and I don’t see electric being able to power large and/or planing motor yachts off of batteries.
I read powered my 30-year-old diesel two years ago with a beta diesel as it would not surprise me if mechanical diesels eventually become extinct in the quest for ultra low emissions. I expect it to work for the next 20-30 years while all of this gets worked out.
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16-11-2019, 08:06
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#84
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: NC
Boat: Southerly 57
Posts: 184
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
I think all these things will be available generally until suitable replacements are out there. I love my EV and they are becoming practical. The technology is advancing quickly. It would be great to have it on my boat for maintenance and noise if nothing else, even if it had a generator back up. I can charge my car currently with my solar panels, and while not practical for the boat, the size and cost will keep coming down.
The lack of maintenance is amazing! Over four years and 60k miles no problems, no maintenance other than wiper blades and tires. The huge untapped area that EV vehicles have is intercity trucks - box trucks, delivery, pick ups that need torque but don’t go that many miles per day and are home at night for charging. Current estimates put total production at 20-30% in the next decade.
All that being said, our fossil fuels will still be readily available for quite some time. It might be more expensive (which might reflect the cost of pollution) but will be available. The global shipping industry is one of the biggest users, and worst polluters, but the energy to run big ships doesn’t have a good alternative right now. For recreational boats, you might make a marina stop to use a charging station rather than fuel up!
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16-11-2019, 08:06
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#85
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2019
Boat: A185F, Mystic 30’ Cutter
Posts: 705
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
Quote:
Originally Posted by malbert73
I would expect Diesel to be available for a long long time for boating given huge number of powerboats compared to sailboats being sold. That’s where the industry is powerful and I don’t see electric being able to power large and/or planing motor yachts off of batteries.
I read powered my 30-year-old diesel two years ago with a beta diesel as it would not surprise me if mechanical diesels eventually become extinct in the quest for ultra low emissions. I expect it to work for the next 20-30 years while all of this gets worked out.
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My only thought is you’re adding required complexity and electronics where you didn’t have any, adding sensors for more info it cool, but having the engine able to run with a compete electric failure. This has had me debating how just rebuilding my 15hp Yanmar and adding a better prop and some sensors, vs “upgrading”.
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16-11-2019, 08:22
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#86
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lake Ont
Posts: 8,547
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernMac
...I’d stick to marine engines and stay away from auto conversion stuff
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Sure, but there's not that many pure marine-only small diesels, are there? Many are based on established and successful "terrestrial" diesels like Kubota.
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16-11-2019, 08:27
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#87
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2019
Boat: A185F, Mystic 30’ Cutter
Posts: 705
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect
Sure, but there's not that many pure marine-only small diesels, are there? Many are based on established and successful "terrestrial" diesels like Kubota.
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I’d think there is a difference between a factory converted vs swapping a auto engine for marine.
One of the reasons I’m debating swapping out my raw water cooled marine built engine, though something more smooth and quite would be nice.
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16-11-2019, 08:52
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#88
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Lake Ont
Posts: 8,547
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernMac
I’d think there is a difference between a factory converted vs swapping a auto engine for marine.
One of the reasons I’m debating swapping out my raw water cooled marine built engine, though something more smooth and quite would be nice.
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My friend who replaced the VW diesel in his boat - he simply bolted the marine stuff (heat exchanger, alternator, raw water pump, etc) onto the new "auto" engine. I guess it all depends on what was done to an engine to make it a marine engine.
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16-11-2019, 08:57
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#89
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Swansea, MA
Boat: CLC Skerry
Posts: 253
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
To those worried about scarcity of diesel fuel: As I type this, there are about 2 million semi trucks driving on US roads (and several times that number worldwide). Each one has two one-hundred gallon saddle tanks. That's 400 million gallons of diesel fuel in use in the US today. And another 400 million tomorrow. On the marine side, hundreds of millions of gallons of diesel fuel are used daily by commercial boats such as fishing boats, ferries, tankers, bulkers, heavy lifts, car carriers, cruise ships, etc, etc. There is no viable alternative to diesel fuel. We will be using diesel fuel for the next 2-3 generations at least. There is no shortage, demand is high and rising, and we have at least 100 years of reserves in the ground in the US. Why worry about it?
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16-11-2019, 09:01
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#90
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2019
Boat: A185F, Mystic 30’ Cutter
Posts: 705
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Re: Inboard engines and a changing world
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhubstuff
To those worried about scarcity of diesel fuel: As I type this, there are about 2 million semi trucks driving on US roads (and several times that number worldwide). Each one has two one-hundred gallon saddle tanks. That's 400 million gallons of diesel fuel in use in the US today. And another 400 million tomorrow. On the marine side, hundreds of millions of gallons of diesel fuel are used daily by commercial boats such as fishing boats, ferries, tankers, bulkers, heavy lifts, car carriers, cruise ships, etc, etc. There is no viable alternative to diesel fuel. We will be using diesel fuel for the next 2-3 generations at least. There is no shortage, demand is high and rising, and we have at least 100 years of reserves in the ground in the US. Why worry about it?
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Yup!
Plus all the turbine aircraft which basically run more or less on “diesel”. I used to run both sumped jet-a and winter mix diesel in my home furnace too lol
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