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Old 12-04-2007, 07:44   #16
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CSY Man got it right: "I'm sick of leaning and living in a basement. Buy me a catamaran or get used to gardening."
Ha-ha, tha' was a good try, but no cigar joker..

Nuthing wrong with the present boat, not leaning much and no basement feeling either.

The wifey ain't interested in no catamaran, nor am I.
The problem is rather that she is a city gal and her idea of adventure is watching the Discovery Channel.

She was never around the ocean before and never had the faintest interest in boating.
The only thing she knows about catamarans is that they are ugly...

Just may have to replace her with a lower time unit..

Any monohull gals out there looking for a good time?
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Old 12-04-2007, 10:20   #17
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Originally Posted by sneuman
There also seems to be a new psychology in our tech-crazy society: If you don't have every whiz-bang gizmo, you're a foolhardy and irresponsible sailor.
I would define the foolhardy and irresponsible sailor as one who lacks the fundamental skills to safely go to sea in the absence of modern electronics. (i.e. the responsible sailor is one who has the necessary skills and equipment to continue safely when the batteries all die.)

IMHO, modern electronics have been a major contributor to the rising numbers of unskilled sailors who are willing to take to the sea with the false sense of security that all those gizmos can provide. When the stuff fails (not if, but when), many of today's sailors lacking the basic skills that their predecessors have used for the thousands of years before them. (Compare the great length of time that humans have been at sea vs the brief period that modern electronics have been available.)

That said, I think that GPS is as revolutionary to the sailor as the Internet is in the communications arena. They are also cheap enough for one boat to have backup units aboard. That still doesn't alleviated today's sailor from the responsibility of learning alternative methods for obtaining a fix or calculating a DR position.

No doubt, there are many devices that improve the efficiency of navigation, the prediction of weather, and the likelihood of rescue if all goes awry. I only wish that there were as much emphasis placed on fundamental chart and compass skills, fundamental meteorology, and good old common sense. Given the probability of electronic system failure, in conditions when it may be needed the most, I feel that the litmus test for responsibly going to sea should be one's ability to do so once the batteries have all died.
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Old 12-04-2007, 11:31   #18
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I agree with everyone regarding the need for gizmos - air conditioning, watermakers, perfectly linked electronics, etc...

However, I do have a couple of feelings and/or concerns regarding the smaller boat. Recently, we have been struggling to figure out how to pay for the "too expensive" boat we bought.

I have been sailing for more than 20 years, have some offshore experience and have spent time cruising in the Caribbean (working though... not fun).

Anyway, working through all the options of finding a suitable cheap boat, a SMALL boat never once entered my mind. Why? A boat's ability to deal with seas is directly linked to its LWL. Ever seen a tanker capsized without having a ballast/cargo issue or running aground and taking on water? Why is it that these boats don't capsize? It's due to the relationship between the LWL of a boat and the size of a breaking wave that is positioned to capsize it. Bigger boats are just less likely to capsize. Also, they are more comfortable at anchor or when that power boat zips by and gives you a huge wake.

I know Raven and I differ on this, and I respect his point of view. I have fond memories of having a boat I was able to more easily control, which is a safety factor in itself. However, I enjoy the sheer tonnage that only a larger vessel can bring to the table.

Since this is an interesting thread, I hope to see some counter points or something continuing along...
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:52   #19
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Anyway, working through all the options of finding a suitable cheap boat, a SMALL boat never once entered my mind. Why? A boat's ability to deal with seas is directly linked to its LWL.
Perhaps the question posed in this thread should be, "Is a large boat with all the latest and greatest gizmos a necessary prerequisite to setting sail?"

To that, I would answer a resounding no (and BTW, Sean, it's good to have you back in the forum). If one is willing to develop the time honored skills of the sailor and/or is willing to accept the inherent risks of the sea in whatever craft he/she chooses, then there is a world of adventure awaiting.

Perhaps my thinking has been shaped by the fact that so many of my hours (days, months, years) on the water have been spent in a boat with a 20 inch beam and 17' LOA. Not to be deterred the requirements that others may prescribe, I have "cruised" the majority of the U.S. east coast in that boat (a fiberglass sea kayak), including launching into the face of Hurricane Floyd eight years ago (in order to test "storm tactics" in extreme conditions).

I started with small boats and have worked my way up in size to the 34 footer I live on at the moment (with 2 to 4 inches of snow predicted for today, BTW). Each craft has been a grand adventure. I agree with Dave (maxingout). Don't waste the currency of your youth in pursuit of the large and expensive boats. Get out there now, in whatever you've got or can currently afford. If the boat or your skills are not suitable for crossing oceans, then stick close to shore. Time on the water is what matters most of all.
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Old 12-04-2007, 12:59   #20
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I've crewed and owned boats from 8 to 55 feet. The one I learned more about sailing on was a 22 foot that I just untied and kicked off the dock whenever I had an hour after work. The one that was most comfortable and easy to handle and cruising compatible was a 35 footer. The easiest to maintain was an 8 foot sailing Sabot with a leeboard. The most comfortable at a dock was a Piver 36 tri.
Not every boat is going to be the best for what your individual priority needs will be and not one boat will meet all your needs and desires. You just have to make up your mind what best suits you. I believe the best to be a 32-36 foot monohull, fiberglass, cutter rigged, aft cockpit without a lot of electronics to be the best. But, that's just me.
Do all the cruising you can when you are younger. Each day I wait to cruise I develop another ache and pain. Can't imagine how good my physical condition will be when my boat is finally ready. When the boat is ready I might not be able.
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Old 12-04-2007, 13:04   #21
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Since this is an interesting thread, I hope to see some counter points or something continuing along...
Well, yeah a bigger boat may be more of this and more of that..But where do you stop?

My first boat was a 44' yawl. Plenty big heavy and stable, etc.

My present ship is a 33' cutter and find her just as comfortable and easier to deal with than the bigger boat.

The smaller boat is also plenty sea-worthy and she has been across the pond twice with previous owner: She said the crossings were comfortable and they never had problems of any kind.

What ya get in the bigger boat is more speed, more storage room and bigger bills.

For my use, gunkholing the Bahama Islands, I don't need speed, or tons of storage: Can still store food, fuel and water for 1 month without have stuff laying around in the interior or tying fuel and water cans to stanchions.

Can't say I roll around more in anchorages than bigger boats either.
(I take a line from the anchor chain, lead it back to the mainwinch, then crank in chain to point the bow into the waves, easy and comfortable and 100K cheaper than getting a bigger boat to avoid rolling)

So again, for my use: Perfect...

For 6 people circumnavigating the planet non-stop in record time, my little ship would perhaps prove less than optimal..

So, uh every boat has a purpose and a mission.
I would rather stick with this one, well equipped, well maintained and best of all, she is Paid For..

Come sail with me Sean, I have a few openings and you may get surprised how safe and comfy small boats can be.

PS..I use to crew on Super Tankers and know about big boats as well.
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Old 12-04-2007, 13:09   #22
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I believe the best to be a 32-36 foot monohull, fiberglass, cutter rigged, aft cockpit without a lot of electronics to be the best. But, that's just me.

Bingo, thats what I got..Ya are a wise man..

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Old 12-04-2007, 13:33   #23
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Originally Posted by ssullivan
Since this is an interesting thread, I hope to see some counter points or something continuing along...
I dunno about counterpoints, but I reckon it is fundamentally important that the skipper / owner has complete confidence in the boat design. For some this will involve a 45 footer and others less or more - not to say any is "right" or "wrong" as purely length is not everything in a boat design being suitable for the task(s) required.

(and of course in an ideal world confidence will actually be based on something )

It's all plusses and minuses and compromises.

With the benefit of hindsight / experiance - for the weight / design of boat I have - another couple of feet would probably be about right......or dropping 2 of the "spare" keels ........but the main "compromise" I chose (to suit my circumstances and dreams) is that whether I use her or not she is not (and never will) be eating me out of home and hearth. and she is bought and paid for.........but another couple of feet would be nice. and some more sail area and...........
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Old 12-04-2007, 14:56   #24
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Interesting. I definitely love your boat CSY Man. No doubt about it. I just wanted to raise the one fact about LWL and breaking waves that makes a difference.

Out of curiosity, what are your LWL, Displacement and Ballst figures? I'm tending to think they are quite healthy and you have a much bigger boat packaged into a short LOA.

I do like the comment that there is a boat for every use. That is probably what it is all about in the end.

And David - my friend - I'm not knocking small boats. No need to bring in my personal finances to gouge at me. I respect you as a fellow cruising forum participant and respect your boat as well. My post wasn't a knock to smaller boats... just wondering how folks reasoned out LWL and stability. I wasn't able to reason a smaller boat for that reason and also for a 2 person liveaboard. If I still want a wife, I have to keep it a little margin of room.
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Old 12-04-2007, 16:02   #25
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Jeez... not being able to go back and edit a post you read incorreclty is tough! David - please ignore my stupidity above. I misread your post and replied incorreclty. My most sincere apologies. I did mean to say I am not trying to knock "smaller boats" , but read hostility into your post when there was none. (quite embarassed)
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Old 12-04-2007, 18:26   #26
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Out of curiosity, what are your LWL, Displacement and Ballst figures? I'm tending to think they are quite healthy and you have a much bigger boat packaged into a short LOA.
Aye, LWL from the factory = 25 feet.
After all the added weight and junk, probably 27'.

Displacement from the factory around 16K.
As she sits now, probably 22K

Ballast around 4.5K if memory serves right...

She is very heavy, and therefore quite stable, but slow..

That being said, we have passed a couple of sailboats on a Starboard beam reach. One was a Cabo Rico 38, the other one a 36 sloop something. 20 knots and reefed main, reefed jig and full stays'l

Guess I can carry more sail as am quite heavy and stiff.
(and need to carry more sail to move)

In light winds however we are the slow boat to China.
That is what diesel engines are for: Sail with winds less than 10 knots.
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Old 12-04-2007, 19:23   #27
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That being said, we have passed a couple of sailboats on a Starboard beam reach. One was a Cabo Rico 38
The only boat Shadowfax ever beat was a Cabo Rico 38 on two different occasions with two different Cabo Rico's. Blowing a stiff breeze as you say.
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Old 13-04-2007, 11:40   #28
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Originally Posted by ssullivan
Jeez... not being able to go back and edit a post you read incorreclty is tough! David - please ignore my stupidity above. I misread your post and replied incorreclty. My most sincere apologies. I did mean to say I am not trying to knock "smaller boats" , but read hostility into your post when there was none. (quite embarassed)
No worries Re-reading my own post it wasn't my most well crafted - the 2nd part was more a general point rather than part of any specific response to you (let alone a dig - I understand only too well the "Monkey on the back" feeling)........another million posts and I may get the hang of this internet malarky

The point (my opinion ) I was trying to express (to folk generally) was that size is not always (but can be) the defining matter in selecting a boat.

All boats have to suit the purposes of an owner, and that these will vary from person to person for entirely valid reasons - therefore affecting the priority given to each.

But that for whatever purposes someone buys a boat (inclduing but not restricted to their intended cruising areas) they have to have complete confidence in the boat design given their intended purposes and their ability........which is not automatically dictated by the size of vessel (albeit it is a factor).......and this is not meant to suggest that those with small (er!) boats are therefore better sailors - plenty of boats big and small I would not venture forth in either due to the design and / or my lack of ability / experiance - or the simple fact I would just not enjoy a vessel with too much "life" in her over a longer distance..........just that for folk wanting to sail off into the WBY they do not always need a large boat fully tricked out (want and prefer are different subjects ) in order to be safe and comfortable and that their are advantages to not going as big as possible and this does not have to be done in some form of hair shirt style.

To get this "confidence" in my own vessel I have selected a boat that I believe is "idiot proof" particularly when it comes to heavier weather and also longer passages - and given the other considerations which were at the top of my list (Size / cost / Keel configuration / intended use near and longer term) - this has resulted in a small (er!) boat that will never be exactly nimble around the cans in light airs, even once I learn to get the most out of her . Of course whether she is as good in bad weather as I think she is only time will tell..........but until she proves otherwise I will have complete confidence in her
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Old 13-04-2007, 11:49   #29
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rtbates - good for you- go for it!

Uh, we don't have to share this discussion with anyone do we?

I mean, well....... uh, Honey, the tulips are ready.
No need to. Plant the garden on the bridge deck.
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Old 13-04-2007, 11:59   #30
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CSY,
Great photo of your boat. She is a beauty. Just curious about your pennants/flags flying. Can you tell me what they are?
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