In Mast furling systems

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

I usually am in close accord with your posts, Dockhead, but we will have to disagree a little on some points here.

Your points 4 to 6 above we are on the same page. And to flesh out a little, particularly of note is the idea that so many seem to have that inmast reefing jams. It doesn't any more than hoisting sail jams, as it can also easily do for a host of reasons, most common being halliard jumping the sheave and a track car failing and jamming in the track. Hoisting sails on a larger boat are just VERY much harder to handle shorthanded, in general, to the extent that they are a significant hazard.

Ok, so far so good. But points 1 to 3? Point 1, while I agree to some degree, wrt variability, but as someone who has sailed around 35,000 miles under specifically Hood Stoway spars alone (and lots and lots more under many other types and sizes of rig), I can't agree with your words on Stoways (I presume you meant the Hoods, now Formula?). I find them generally excellent and reliable, with most gripes relating to top bearings for the foil (no longer an issue as can be easily converted to the essentially trouble free, bearingless "reed" system) and issues with the gear seals, which is basic maintenance. In all that time I have encountered no catastrophic issues with these spars, and like them a lot in general. I suppose YMMV.

Point 2. Yes, performance suffers, but not IMHO very much. There are also benefits which cannot be had from a conventional rig, some of which you mention, but others not, such as being able to fly the main like a headsail with big belly when deep reaching, well off the boom, as the sail is loose footed and the outhaul is unlimited variability. Further, you don't have all the disruption of the big messy, airflow disrupting slabs hanging around the boom when reefed.

Point 3. Even on larger craft I have never had an issue operating inmast reefing singlehanded, and can reef, set and trim a 30 meter mast singlehanded in seconds. Further one can go from a full rig to nothing in perhaps 30 seconds, from a standing start behind the wheel, and likely rather faster than that with practise. This is not a boast as I reckon this would apply to anyone with a wee bit practise.

As to your three conclusions, I agree with the second and third. Your assertion that inmast "makes no sense" for what you term "mild" latitudes makes no sense to me! Those "mild" latitudes sure can be fierce, and are MORE likely to produce unpredicted wind shifts and increases through four or five Beaufort forces in seconds, because of the prevalence of convective winds and squalls.

This sudden and unpredictable scenario means that for shorthanding, inmasts make ideal sense for tropical and subtropical latitudes likewise.

OK, well these observations are no less valid and possibly more valid than what I posted. I am surprised that you're such a fan of in-mast furling, but ok!

Certainly I will defer to your experience in the tropics. My experience is limited to coastal cruising in Florida and some Caribbean sailing. Outside of tradewind conditions we had too little wind 90% of the time so the extra performance from a roach was always welcome and I would not have wanted my present rig.

As to operating in-mast furling single handed -- obviously I can do this, since I single hand my boat quite a lot. But how do you keep the right amount of tension on the outhaul, and at the same time, keep tension on the lazy end of the furling line? You need three hands. What I do when single handed is to slack the outhaul a certain ways, belay it, furl, slack the outhaul some more, belay it, and etc. It works, but it's not ideal, and the stronger the conditions, the worse this method is. If you have some different trick, I woul be glad to have it.

Concerning loose-footedness -- yes, this is a great thing, but all my fully battened mains were loose-footed too! This is not an exclusive quality of furling mains.

[neilpride]

This question again? like other poster say , there is inmast crap gear and there is well designed furlers,,, i will say the 80% of the problems come from operator error and the rest is cheap crap designed to make your life miserable,,, saying that if you pay attention to unfurling and furl tasks most of the risk is gone,,, then you have diferent quality and design out there, in will run away from any Zspar inmastfurling , selden have their isues to , and be aware that in many of this furlers, a bad jam call for unstepp the stick to clear the mess, this maybe sounds lame from my part but 99% of the boats with severe jams that come to our dock are old couples forgetting the basic rule when furling or unfurling , keep the tension and do it foot by foot....my 2 cents.

[Dockhead]

Yes. I guess the bottom line is -- how many people do you know who had in-mast furling, hated it, and went back to a regular main? This is probably the key information.

I actually do know one person like that -- my own Father. But his system was terrible. I think it was Facnor, it was a behind-the-mast add-on type, and it just didn't work. It had huge friction in the system and was extremely hard to get in and out, and the shape of the sail was terrible. He ended up throwing it away after several years of struggle.

Everyone else I've ever known who switched to in-mast furling ended up at least liking it, and many I know ended up loving it.

Almost all the really negative things you read about it, is written by people who have never had it (trying it a couple of times on other people's boats doesn't count).

Still I'm not sure if I were building a boat from scratch, whether I would specify in-mast furling. I would have to think about it. It most definitely does not suck, it has a few very significant advantages, but it also has a few disadvantages.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As to operating in-mast furling single handed -- obviously I can do this, since I single hand my boat quite a lot. But how do you keep the right amount of tension on the outhaul, and at the same time, keep tension on the lazy end of the furling line? You need three hands. What I do when single handed is to slack the outhaul a certain ways, belay it, furl, slack the outhaul some more, belay it, and etc. It works, but it's not ideal, and the stronger the conditions, the worse this method is. If you have some different trick, I woul be glad to have it.

When furling the sail in I sometimes put the outhaul line under my foot to give it some additional tension. But usually the pulleys etc. already give sufficient small tension without any additional tricks. I typically set the boom at ideal height for furling in or out. That makes folding of the sail much less probable. I may also sometimes set the boom position so that the wind helps me in maintaining some appropriate tension.

As you can see, the procedure is not always quite straight forward. And as neilpride said above, sometimes you must do it foot by foot. But since I know my system by now quite well, I usually get it in at first or second try after backing it a bit. The system could be better but it is quite acceptable also now. New sails might help. Anyway, it is usually just half a minute juggling with the lines.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, well these observations are no less valid and possibly more valid than what I posted. I am surprised that you're such a fan of in-mast furling, but ok!

Certainly I will defer to your experience in the tropics. My experience is limited to coastal cruising in Florida and some Caribbean sailing. Outside of tradewind conditions we had too little wind 90% of the time so the extra performance from a roach was always welcome and I would not have wanted my present rig.

As to operating in-mast furling single handed -- obviously I can do this, since I single hand my boat quite a lot. But how do you keep the right amount of tension on the outhaul, and at the same time, keep tension on the lazy end of the furling line? You need three hands. What I do when single handed is to slack the outhaul a certain ways, belay it, furl, slack the outhaul some more, belay it, and etc. It works, but it's not ideal, and the stronger the conditions, the worse this method is. If you have some different trick, I woul be glad to have it.

Concerning loose-footedness -- yes, this is a great thing, but all my fully battened mains were loose-footed too! This is not an exclusive quality of furling mains.

Hey Dockhead,

Well each thing has its applications and as you note for larger to big boat shorthanding inmast or in boom (much the less favored for me, unless really large vessel, above 90 feet) is invaluable. It does decrease performance to a certain degree, but not much if your sail material is good (Vectran or similar) and you are good at tweaking it "just so". As you also noted it is infinitely geared, so you can balance a boat to one finger steering perfection whatever teh conditions or point of sail. Of course with a full crew of ten or a dozen or more, on a 60 foot or above for ocean racing a full suite of 13 or 14 sails and hank ons with a hoisting main is the best… but that is a different application eh?

As to my devilish trick? Electric or hydraulic, mate I agree reefing an inmast with a line calls the whole ease of singlehanding thing into question, though Juho seems to have it going on!

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by neilpride

This question again? like other poster say , there is inmast crap gear and there is well designed furlers,,, i will say the 80% of the problems come from operator error and the rest is cheap crap designed to make your life miserable,,, saying that if you pay attention to unfurling and furl tasks most of the risk is gone,,, then you have diferent quality and design out there, in will run away from any Zspar inmastfurling , selden have their isues to , and be aware that in many of this furlers, a bad jam call for unstepp the stick to clear the mess, this maybe sounds lame from my part but 99% of the boats with severe jams that come to our dock are old couples forgetting the basic rule when furling or unfurling , keep the tension and do it foot by foot....my 2 cents.

I agree 100% Inmasts are not a magic trick… they require careful procedure just like anything else. The boom angle must be carefully controlled by topping lift and/or vang (hydraulic ideally), the sail material correct and well maintained, and things like outhaul tension managed. But it isn't more difficult than a hoisting sail… with a modicum of attention, it is rather the opposite.

[undercutter]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Hey Dockhead,

As to my devilish trick? Electric or hydraulic, mate I agree reefing an inmast with a line calls the whole ease of singlehanding thing into question, though Juho seems to have it going on!

No electric or hydraulic furler on our boat. No need for one as is easy to do one handed and this is just something else to break.

Continuous loop on the mizzen furler as there is no room for the winch handle due to the location of the chartplotter. binnacle is aft of the mizzen mast. One hand to keep a little tension on the outhaul and one hand to furl the sail.

Winch handle on the main mast and as others have said here place you foot on the outhaul to keep a little tension on after releasing the jammer on the underside of the boom. Usually can furl the main with one hand as well unless the winds are really strong.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by undercutter

No electric or hydraulic furler on our boat. No need for one as is easy to do one handed and this is just something else to break.

Continuous loop on the mizzen furler as there is no room for the winch handle due to the location of the chartplotter. binnacle is aft of the mizzen mast. One hand to keep a little tension on the outhaul and one hand to furl the sail.

Winch handle on the main mast and as others have said here place you foot on the outhaul to keep a little tension on after releasing the jammer on the underside of the boom. Usually can furl the main with one hand as well unless the winds are really strong.

My outhaul on my boat, would take my foot off if I tried to do it that way. There is almost no friction in my outhaul system, and the outhaul itself is Dyneema and fairly slippery. To do it right it needs a strongish crewman who has taken a turn around a winch, to keep it under control as the sail is furled, at least in any kind of wind.

So other than grow a third hand, I still don't see any good way to do it single handed on my boat.


I like Muckle's way best of all -- electric in-mast furler . That's definitely the ideal way to do it, for me. My next boat will definitely have that, IF it has in-mast furling; also electric headsail furlers. Selden makes really nice ones.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Hey Dockhead,

Well each thing has its applications and as you note for larger to big boat shorthanding inmast or in boom (much the less favored for me, unless really large vessel, above 90 feet) is invaluable. It does decrease performance to a certain degree, but not much if your sail material is good (Vectran or similar) and you are good at tweaking it "just so". As you also noted it is infinitely geared, so you can balance a boat to one finger steering perfection whatever teh conditions or point of sail. Of course with a full crew of ten or a dozen or more, on a 60 foot or above for ocean racing a full suite of 13 or 14 sails and hank ons with a hoisting main is the best… but that is a different application eh?

As to my devilish trick? Electric or hydraulic, mate I agree reefing an inmast with a line calls the whole ease of singlehanding thing into question, though Juho seems to have it going on!

Maybe we can add one more item to the list of in-mast furling advantages -- because of the very great range of tweaks -- loose foot, infinite increments of reefing -- it's just FUN use all these controls to trim and trim the main to perfection. My boat has a powerful vang (Selden Rodkicker), and excellent Selden remote controlled traveler, with its own dedicated winches, which adds to this fun. I have never had nearly so much fun with just the pure sailing aspect of this sport, at least since I was racing 420 dinghies so many decades ago.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My outhaul on my boat, would take my foot off if I tried to do it that way. There is almost no friction in my outhaul system, and the outhaul itself is Dyneema and fairly slippery. To do it right it needs a strongish crewman who has taken a turn around a winch, to keep it under control as the sail is furled, at least in any kind of wind.

It might be also too dangerous or impractical to have two turns around the winch and then put the line under your foot. One good solution for this problem would be a clutch that would let some line out when pressed by foot. That would be safe and practical. Of course also automated winches that can do the same (using foot) will do.

[Muckle Flugga]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Maybe we can add one more item to the list of in-mast furling advantages -- because of the very great range of tweaks -- loose foot, infinite increments of reefing -- it's just FUN use all these controls to trim and trim the main to perfection. My boat has a powerful vang (Selden Rodkicker), and excellent Selden remote controlled traveler, with its own dedicated winches, which adds to this fun. I have never had nearly so much fun with just the pure sailing aspect of this sport, at least since I was racing 420 dinghies so many decades ago.

Nice! And yes!

[jtsailjt]

When I was boat shopping a few years ago, one of my criteria was that it NOT have in mast furling, both because of performance considerations and a bad experience on a delivery with jamming so we couldn't get the partially furled sail in or out for almost a day. But we found a boat that happened to have a Profurl behind the mast "slot effect" system and bought it, planning to remove that system within a few years and go back to a traditional sail on Tides Marine Strong track with a stack pack type sail cover. It's inevitable that I'm going to have to eventually go to that because Profurl no longer makes or supports the system we have. But I'm not so sure I'd ever take it off the boat if parts were available because of the simplicity of it and the ability to reef at any point of sail in any winds we've encountered so far, without leaving the cockpit. Just prior to selling, the prior owner spent a LOT of money on a high tech mainsail which is very stiff and thick, so this sail, when furled takes up ALL the space in the "clamshells" that keep the foil from sagging to leeward when underway, especially in the bottom 15' or so of the luff. This means that when pulling the sail out, instead of smoothly unrolling, sometimes it would bunch up and jam in the 2 bottom clamshells where the furled sail is thickest. Frustrating, but pretty easy to fix by furling it back in while holding tension on the outhaul, and there is never a problem furling the sail. Now that we're accustomed to it, we make it a point to furl the sail as tightly as possible so that even near the bottom of the sail where it's fattest, there is a little space between it and the clamshell and when we do that the system works flawlessly. We have the advantage of an electric winch that we alternately use for both the outhaul and the furling line, and use hand tension on the line that's not on the winch.

One advantage of this system over in mast furling is that we can see the sail when furled and that means we can see how tight it is and where and why it's getting jammed. It's always because of too loose a furl near the bottom of the sail so it bunches up when we try to pull the sail out. So, the only key to operating this system without problems is to make sure you keep as much tension as possible on the outhaul when furling the sail!! That sounds pretty easy and if you're relatively strong it is, but with our size sail, especially one made with thick and stiff, high tech material and foam vertical "batten type strips" sewed in near the luff, you need to have some pretty strong hands and to stay focused on keeping constant tension on the outhaul all during the furling process. If you do that, an in mast or behind the mast system like ours is a real convenience. In light air, because of the lack of roach in our main, I'm sure our performance suffers significantly, but in stronger breezes, we have plenty of sail area up to sail at hull speed and can reef the exact amount that conditions dictate. Another advantage is that in very strong wind conditions where you might consider using a storm trysail, I'd be tempted to just furl in all but about the last 5 or 6 feet and use that rather than dragging our storm trysail up and pulling it up it's dedicated track, hoping to not get injured in the process.

The electric winch does make a big difference in ease of furling, because as Dockhead has said, otherwise you sort of need 3 hands to do it properly. I sit on our starboard side cockpit seat and use my foot to operate the electric winch when furling, which frees up both hands to keep constant tension, hand over hand, on the outhaul line.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My outhaul on my boat, would take my foot off if I tried to do it that way. There is almost no friction in my outhaul system, and the outhaul itself is Dyneema and fairly slippery. To do it right it needs a strongish crewman who has taken a turn around a winch, to keep it under control as the sail is furled, at least in any kind of wind.

So other than grow a third hand, I still don't see any good way to do it single handed on my boat.


I like Muckle's way best of all -- electric in-mast furler . That's definitely the ideal way to do it, for me. My next boat will definitely have that, IF it has in-mast furling; also electric headsail furlers. Selden makes really nice ones.

1. Put boat on autopilot.
2. One hand to operate the furling winch
3. The other hand to control the outhaul tension.

I find this easier that having two people do the furling

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Muckle Flugga

Hey Dockhead,

Well each thing has its applications and as you note for larger to big boat shorthanding inmast or in boom (much the less favored for me, unless really large vessel, above 90 feet) is invaluable. It does decrease performance to a certain degree, but not much if your sail material is good (Vectran or similar) and you are good at tweaking it "just so". As you also noted it is infinitely geared, so you can balance a boat to one finger steering perfection whatever teh conditions or point of sail. Of course with a full crew of ten or a dozen or more, on a 60 foot or above for ocean racing a full suite of 13 or 14 sails and hank ons with a hoisting main is the best… but that is a different application eh?

As to my devilish trick? Electric or hydraulic, mate I agree reefing an inmast with a line calls the whole ease of singlehanding thing into question, though Juho seems to have it going on!

MF-Have had this exact argument here before several times. I too have Hood Stoway, and love it. Of course, my experience may be skewed by the fact that it's in-mast electric. Have spent years trying to dispell the myths here, only to hear them repeated by the same people over and over. IME Selden is actually by far the most problematic system. My Hood has numerous excellent features, such as manual back up and the ability to easily drop the sail if a jam occurs. All the usual concerns have been long addressed, but people will still state they are an issue even if they don't have such a rig. And no, negative roach is not required. I have brought up Airbattens here many, many times. Not that it makes much difference on a boat designed from scratch for in-mast, with an accompanying longer mast height to compensate for lost roach. I have also brought up the advantages of in mast mains being much much cheaper to build, and living longer due to being stored in mast with full UV protection. Many times. Don't waste your breath, it's just like anchors etc. etc. People have already made up their minds and don't want to change them. I was once a purist too, and would have mocked my current rig with it's all power furling and power winches. I have since grown up, and also learned a lot about handling big heavy boats short handed. Only personal experience with a rig that is well set up and works is likely to change anyone's mind on this, IMO. Just do a search on the legion of older threads on this topic. It's depressing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by David B

1. Put boat on autopilot.
2. One hand to operate the furling winch
3. The other hand to control the outhaul tension.

I find this easier that having two people do the furling

What about the third hand to keep tension on the lazy end of the furling line?

If you have electric or hydraulic, that should work, or maybe someone has invented a manual furling winch which can be operated with one hand. Mine requires two hands, however, as you have to keep tension on the endless furling line in order for it to have traction.