Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-12-2008, 11:27   #16
MV
Registered User
 
MV's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Diego
Boat: Willard 8 Ton World Cruiser
Posts: 461
Images: 24
Send a message via Yahoo to MV
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amgine View Post
As usual, an event like this is not a single problem but a series of mistakes, failures, and misadventures. But maybe we should take this apart and list the series of issues we know led to being towed in.

Issues prior to departure:
  1. Navigational planning - cruise departure set far too late in the season, no planned stages for local climate.
  2. Failure to wait for a good weather window, favorable forecast.
  3. Failure to check current weather conditions on departure, or failure to heed warnings.
Issues at sea, mid-storm:
  1. Mechanical propulsion failure - although we do not have details, it seems likely tank sediment clogged the fuel filter. Failure to have tank cleaned, inability to change filter/bleed fuel system in extreme weather, lack of fuel filter redundancy systems.
  2. Furling sail system failure. Earlier images of the boat show only small portions of the staysails exposed, including several 'bubbles', indicating poor furling practice or furling system failure under load.
  3. Heavy weather tactics not apparent. I don't have evidence to compare, other than the speed at which the boat 'drifted' west which may indicate running off under bare poles. Other tactics, such as heaving-to, streaming a drogue or sea anchor, are clearly not indicated.
  4. Making assumptions here, but we see no evidence of an attempt to set a storm jib or trysail, possibly due to minimal crew not in gear able to withstand conditions (survival suit).
  5. There are no reports of VHF/SSB communications attempts, despite being in range via cell phone. The first hard communications appears to be the EPIRB.
Anyone got anything else?

The article implies were it not for the cell phones getting a signal out, things might have been worse. Even at the bottom of a 12 foot wave trough, the Bowditch Table I have suggests a VHF radio signal ought to have reached land as close as they were. Surely they tried their radio? But then again, maybe the distress call as reported in the first line or two of the article came form their VHF.

Michael
__________________

__________________
MV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 11:56   #17
Registered User
 
Tempest245's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Piscataway, NJ
Boat: 34 Sabre Tempest
Posts: 937
We can all be happy that no one got seriously hurt. I'd rather my tax dollars go to helping sailors in trouble than bailing out investment bankers. I may need to call the coast guard one day, it's a good thing they will probably come no matter how stupid they think I am.

I don't have a wind-chill chart in front of me...but 30 to 40 knot winds with ambient temperatures of 40 degrees would be below freezing. Add being wet to that and judgment and dexterity get pretty reduced. If they had continued to sail west their next safe entrance would have been New York Harbor/ Sandy hook...20 to 24 hours away. From a rescue perspective the call was timely, in my opinion.

Montauk/Port Judith were still relatively close to their position.

A triple reefed main with a preventor, if they had a third reef, may have allowed them to sail downwind but I can't see them being able to sail to windward that deeply reefed against those waves. I'm assuming that windward was Home or toward Block or Port Judith. From the look of the sails still raised they didn't have the strength to take them down and stow them.

If that's the case, the son was faced with hand steering for 24 hours to New York (with a lee shore to keep off of), with little or no assitance from his crew.
If he goes down with Exhaustion, Hypothermia, Seasickness, then it's a beaching.
He made the call and saved his crew and maybe his vessel. If he had an able crew member to assist him...he may have made another call. It sounds like he didn't.

I'm sure the Tow and the Salvage will cost them plenty.
__________________

__________________
Tempest245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 12:06   #18
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,063
Hud3,

You are often the one that makes sense. All of the second guessing, makes me sick, when made by people that sit at the dock and know it all.
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 12:31   #19
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
Bad decisions from the get go. The EASY BUTTON is allowing to many people to leave refuge when they shouldn't. It is becoming weekly it seems. Last week it was hypothermia on a 50ft. cat. What no winter clothing this time of year? A week later the boats are found fine managing for themselves. You need to know your limits, as well as the boats.

When we were still cruising we would leave northern Florida on a northern wind this time of year. Being prepared, and knowing your boat. Here's a pic of my 4'9" Honey driving the boat at 15 knots with 30 knots of wind. The windchill has the temp in the 20's off of Daytona. A double reefed main, and half a headsail. 450 miles in 48 hours with P.B. to Miami a real crawl.

This not being able to call a dog a dog when it is nothing less, or more than a dog is nonsense. Unfortunately in these days the internet, and the swiftness of information. Some will not like the light shed upon them. Then don't put yourself on the front page. Act responsibly, and be responsible to your vessel & crew.

Ronnie Simpson in my opinion should have never left the dock for Hawaii, and especially not his boat. I will stand up, and shout out that he took his criticism like a man, and faced his music. That young man took a beating here, but because of his courage to answer his critics. He became well liked amongst many that hurled criticism at him.

Absolutely no excuse for not knowing the weather.......IMHO

The old saying.....if you can't do the time, then don't do the crime....kind of works here too. I am not suggesting we stone anyone, but we should be able to freely discuss the situation. Isn't discusion the original purpose of forums to begin with?.......i2f
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Frigid sailing.JPG
Views:	80
Size:	285.8 KB
ID:	6439  
__________________
SAILING is not always a slick magazine cover!
BORROWED..No single one of is as smart as all of us!
http://sailingwithcancer.blogspot.com/
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 14:24   #20
Registered User
 
Tempest245's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Piscataway, NJ
Boat: 34 Sabre Tempest
Posts: 937
I normally take Amgine's approach to these reports. Trying to pick them apart and see what lessons I can learn from them...for myself.

That's why I read everything I can get my hands on. I learn the most from the mistakes that get written about. There's not much to learn from..." The weather was great, we all had a good time " reports.

I deal with lots of bridges and narrow, rocky, current filled inlets. I learned long ago the value of having my engine in optimum running condition. This story will help make me even more diligent.

Knowing the weather, not being chained to a schedule..and making good decisions at the dock...are things that I've learned by my own past mistakes and those of others.

As I re-read this story , I was reminded how important it is to know the limitations of your crew as well.

Had any of this crew sailed in conditions like this before?
Were any of them prone to seasickness?
Did they Party all night the night before departure?...lol

I set sail for Bermuda once from Annapolis with 5 crew onboard...2 crew that I had never sailed with. By the time we hit the Gulfstream and a predicted low pressure system, the 2 unknown crew were below and one didn't come up for 4 days.
He was a boat owner who claimed thousands of miles of sailing experience.

How do we ever really know, when we set sail how the crew will respond to adversity? I've faced some challenging conditions and got my ship home but I know that at 57 I have limits to what I can endure or am willing to endure.

Having said that, if I never pushed myself to go beyond my initial apprehensions, I would have missed the best sailing experiences of my life. Put more simply, how do you become an ocean sailor if you never venture into the ocean. At some point you have to stick your nose out there, and yeah..make some mistakes.

I wouldn't have left the dock in Dec. with a great crew, and a perfect boat....because I don't like being that cold when I'm sailing...in the same why that I don't play golf when it's raining......

But at 27, I was climbing peaks in the winter and some called me crazy,
Anyone want to buy a pair of snowshoes ?

Happy Holidays to all...... I love this site!..

Tempest...
__________________
Tempest245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 15:14   #21
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Location: SF Bay area
Boat: Columbia 57 "Angelique"
Posts: 63
If any of the crew involved were posting on this thread then perhaps someone could learn something. But without first hand info all that can be done is a bunch of chest beating by folks that have no first hand knowledge. What good does that do for anyone?? I think none, you cant learn anything from fiction and without first hand experience that is all that is being expressed here. No-one posting has any idea what happened on that boat and so to say that they did this or that wrong is just useless speculation.
__________________
cptnandy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 15:35   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southern California
Boat: Was - Passport 45 Ketch
Posts: 837
Sorry.........what's up with this:

"But the crew ran into an offshore storm and into trouble, according to a Coast Guard report released yesterday. The storm’s 30-to-40-knot winds and 12-foot waves were an overwhelming opponent."

We're talking a crew of 4 on a 45' boat ????????..... 30-40 kts of wind and 12' seas is pretty normal stuff on a long passage.

If they were "Overwhelmed" due to sea-sickness, lack of experience or anything else, they should have just hove-to until this "Storm" passed.

Looking at the pics, I can see that the jib sheets are tangled around the forestay and the headsail is torn up from top to bottom.......HMMMMMMM.......don't want to pass judgment here but I've got a pretty good suspicion of what happened here....
__________________
Kanani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 16:27   #23
Registered User
 
Tempest245's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Piscataway, NJ
Boat: 34 Sabre Tempest
Posts: 937
Fiction?....what's wrong with fiction?..

Moby dick, The Old Man and the Sea, A Christmas Carol.

No Soup for you!!.....
__________________
Tempest245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 16:40   #24
Registered User
 
bmartinsen's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Grand Cayman
Boat: Lavranos 39 S/v Continental Drift
Posts: 88
I ask myself "What would Ronnie Simpson do?" sorry couldn't think of anything intelligent to say and Ronnie sprung to mind.
__________________
bmartinsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 16:57   #25
MV
Registered User
 
MV's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Diego
Boat: Willard 8 Ton World Cruiser
Posts: 461
Images: 24
Send a message via Yahoo to MV
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanani View Post

Looking at the pics, I can see that the jib sheets are tangled around the forestay and the headsail is torn up from top to bottom.......HMMMMMMM.......don't want to pass judgment here but I've got a pretty good suspicion of what happened here....

What happened? No criticism at all intended of your post and there is *no* tone in my post-- I am genuinely curious. I looked at the same pictures, but I do not have the experience to tell me what forces were at work.
__________________
MV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 17:20   #26
MV
Registered User
 
MV's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Diego
Boat: Willard 8 Ton World Cruiser
Posts: 461
Images: 24
Send a message via Yahoo to MV
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptnandy View Post
If any of the crew involved were posting on this thread then perhaps someone could learn something. But without first hand info all that can be done is a bunch of chest beating by folks that have no first hand knowledge. What good does that do for anyone?? I think none, you cant learn anything from fiction and without first hand experience that is all that is being expressed here. No-one posting has any idea what happened on that boat and so to say that they did this or that wrong is just useless speculation.
I think yours is a pretty harsh assessment -- there is a lot to be learned here and there are a lot of facts to sift through.

Coast Guard first received some type of radio contact at 7:45PM. They did not make visual contact until 1AM. That is 4 hours and 15 minutes. Seems we just learned something there. Why so long? Was the broadcast a DSC broadcast? In which case, why then would we have this quote: "For hours the crew searched the waters, each time reaching a place where the sailboat’s emergency radio said it should have been, but it wasn’t there. Each time we got to a signal, it was further south and further west,” Burns said."

Sounds to me they were receiving fixes at intervals. Were they regular intervals? Intermittent?

Was it an intermittent DSC connection with a GPS connector not functioning properly? Was it an EPIRB signal with a satellite passing overhead every 106 minutes?

I like the analysis that people do here -- and yes, sometimes you have to shift through some hard words to get to nuggets, but in this particular scenario, I just dont see the chest thumping you are talking about. There was a storm warning the day before. The net is FILLED to the tits with weather info.

Why did they depart? Was it partying? Every disaster in history warrants a look at the decision making process.

What I specifically want to know from this news story is how did 4+ hours manage to pass before contact was made? I want to know the communications involved so I can make sure I do not make the same mistakes. My assumption shattered within this story is that either by pressing the DSC button or activating an EPIRB device help will come in a timely fashion. They were CLOSE to land -- and still it took the Coasties hours to find them.

I have no first hand knowledge, but I sure learned alot from looking at the reported facts in the story.

And I want to know why is the headsail still up? Could they not get it down?


Michael
__________________
MV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 18:01   #27
Registered User
 
Amgine's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 1,384
Images: 1
Mmm, I wouldn't go so far as to characterize this as a disaster; so long as they were able to avoid land they were okay if not at all comfortable. As it was the boat made it back to port, no one was seriously hurt, and the boat is in very good shape. Their gear, as someone pointed out, seems to be quality, a well put-together cruising boat. I assume things started getting complicated one small piece at a time - a decision to drop sail using the motor to hold the boat head to wind, and in mid-maneuver the engine dies resulting in a headsail wrap while furling, for example. An over-ride on the staysail halyard winch. Any of a number of things might have gone wrong putting a spanner in the works.

It's those things I'm looking for, to examine if they might have been foreseeable, preventable, so I can avoid them on my boat. I've already made a major tactical error - I'm going to have to get my boat into US water before the end of February - and I'm frankly terrified of screwing up. Last year I nearly killed myself making this jaunt by falling overboard while tying up, and I could just as easily have gotten the boat in trouble further out.
__________________
Amgine
Blog

On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog anchored in a coral atoll.
Amgine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 18:27   #28
Registered User
 
Stillraining's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Puget Sound
Boat: Irwin 41 CC Ketch
Posts: 2,876
I guess yanking them off and leaving the boat to fend for itself would have been bad form on the coasties part so close in but it would have taught the lesson better.

I wont condemn there actions but agree with handing them the bill...I think all rescues should be looked at case by case to see if it was truly an unavoidable need for rescue ( free of charge ) or an act of ignorance ( you pay )...if not we just perpetuate this kind of level of seamanship.

I wont condemn their adventurism as I like storm sailing come to find out..but Im an inshore sailor and give myself an escape route to run and hide if things get out of hand. And also know Im taking a risk of losing my boat doing it...and carry no EPIRB..sink or swim baby.
__________________
"Go simple, go large!".

Relationships are everything to me...everything else in life is just a tool to enhance them.
Stillraining is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 19:44   #29
Registered User
 
Tempest245's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Piscataway, NJ
Boat: 34 Sabre Tempest
Posts: 937
Michael,

The Coast Guard dispached from Port Judith around 7:45 pm the article said.
Port Judith is about 27 miles or so from the MP sea Buoy. ( Montauk Point )
Given the reported conditions, I wonder what speed the CG vessel could make?
If 7 knots? It would have taken them 4 hours to get to the MP bouy. Timing seems right..
I didn't check the tides and currents at that time, but the sea state is typically worse in the vicinity of Montauk Point.

From what facts we can gleen and what fiction, I like to make up....

It would appear that the son wanted to move his boat south. He decided, for whatever reason, to wait until the end of Hurricane season to do so. That put him in Noreaster season with dramatically colder weather. He enlisted the help of his father, a college buddy and another friend. We know nothing from the article of their abilities. it's reasonable to think that they would have timed their departure to take advantage of a fair current through the Race of Long Island. They may not have received the full force of the blow until they got through the race and into open water. I'm guessing the S#$% hit the fan then, and seasickness got hold of the crew. The skipper tried to shorten sail...maybe he or someone let loose the weather sheet of the jib...( no stop knot? ) The engine failed to start, or stalled....mayhem!
Sails flapping, sheets flying, crew tossing their lunch...Florida seemed a long way away by now! They weren't going to get back into long island sound against an outgoing current with no engine, and flapping sails.....Block island wouldn't be a good option in that blow, north was a beat into the wind. There are no good inlets on Long island's south shore in a noreaster....They were too close to shore to heave to, as their set and drift was toward the beach.
I think the only real options he had was to try to run down the coast under a reefed main toward NY harbor ( 24 hours) or call for help.

Did they rig Jacklines? I forgot to look for them in the photo. Who was going to go forward to haul sails down?
I imagine they had an autopilot, the boat seem well equiped...he should have had enough battery power to run the auto...but would it handle the seas??
You're right, there are dozens of questions. I see nothing wrong with speculating and disecting real events, even without complete information.

No one came back from the Andrea Gale to tell their story, but they wrote a book and made a movie about it.

Tempest...
__________________
Tempest245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-12-2008, 20:15   #30
Registered User
 
Tempest245's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Piscataway, NJ
Boat: 34 Sabre Tempest
Posts: 937
I just looked at the photos again. I see nothing that looked like jacklines rigged. And looking at those sails closely, it actually looks like they were quite old, the stitching let loose at the seams..as if they were rotten...
Weird....
__________________

__________________
Tempest245 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Outboard in Winter Jimske Construction, Maintenance & Refit 4 12-11-2008 19:48
Looking to crew this winter, anywhere. zdon Crew Archives 4 03-11-2008 16:07
Stuart, FL to Hilton Head, SC--October--ICW or offshore? msfranny Atlantic & the Caribbean 2 07-09-2008 09:22
slip for winter seacapture Classifieds Archive 1 23-07-2008 19:04
Liveaboard Winter sneuman Liveaboard's Forum 16 10-02-2007 18:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:54.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.