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Old 29-07-2008, 23:23   #91
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Light that boat may be but 50X30 feet == a lot of forces from waves, irrespective of boat weight and not thinking about sail plan.

He'd really better start taking some welding lessons.
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Old 31-07-2008, 12:37   #92
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'Bunjee jumping' is not about guts. It feels irresponsible if something happens to you for the people who are left behind. And I know what that feels like losing a brother in a car accident at the age of 20.

So for anyone doing something (to) tricky, think twice. I do.

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Old 31-07-2008, 14:34   #93
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One solution might be for people who choose to do highly risky voyages is for them to be required to post a bond to cover the cost of a rescue. Of course the cost of a bond might preclude them from doing the voyage, but then, why should the taxpayers be mandated to pick up the potential costs of others unnecessarily risky ventures?
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Old 31-07-2008, 15:26   #94
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One solution might be for people who choose to do highly risky voyages is for them to be required to post a bond to cover the cost of a rescue. Of course the cost of a bond might preclude them from doing the voyage, but then, why should the taxpayers be mandated to pick up the potential costs of others unnecessarily risky ventures?
If you let that foot in the door, it will get out of hand. Licensing, insurance requirements, yada yada yada. Read all about New Zealand's requirements-which they tried to enforce against vessels registered in other countries, contrary to internation treaties.
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Old 31-07-2008, 16:38   #95
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The four stages of knowledge (I paraphrase)

1/ You're so stupid that you don't even know that you're stupid.
2/ You realize that you're stupid.
3/ You begin to amass knowledge and experience but realize that you still have much to learn.
4/ You have amassed enough knowledge and experience to become competant while at the same time realizing that you'll never know everything.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to where this joker sits?
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Old 31-07-2008, 16:48   #96
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They (safety Industry) don't "have" to rescue anybody, it is because they want too, they are employed to do that. Have you ever seen firemen on the job, it's an adrenalin rush for them. Really no different to sailing, rock climbing, sky diving, it is the chalenge that they thrive on. And of course for the bureaucrats it is all about control.
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Old 31-07-2008, 18:51   #97
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If you let that foot in the door, it will get out of hand. Licensing, insurance requirements, yada yada yada. Read all about New Zealand's requirements-which they tried to enforce against vessels registered in other countries, contrary to internation treaties.
I said for those who choose to take on a risky voyage. I did not say all cruisers, including those cruisers who are being as safe as is reasonably possible. No, I don't like New Zealand's policy, but then I respect their reasons. If you don't like a countries laws then don't cruise there.

But if someone wants to get in a home made aluminum garbage can with bad welds and very questionable engineering, then they should be required to post a bond for their rescue because the probability is extraordinarily high that they will be needing a rescue.

There is no perfect solution but I think posting a bond for rescue comes closest in terms of keeping the taxpayers from having to pick up the costs of someone else's risky venture. Hey, if you don't need a rescue for doing something very risky, then you get your money back!
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Old 31-07-2008, 18:59   #98
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The four stages of knowledge (I paraphrase)

1/ You're so stupid that you don't even know that you're stupid.
2/ You realize that you're stupid.
3/ You begin to amass knowledge and experience but realize that you still have much to learn.
4/ You have amassed enough knowledge and experience to become competant while at the same time realizing that you'll never know everything.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to where this joker sits?
I think the word "stupid" could be substituted for the word "naive". Lack of intelligence and lack of knowledge are really two different things. Everything your saying though makes perfect sense.

Gawd...hopefully most of us are at level 4. It really is true that the more you learn the more you realize how much you still have to learn. Level one is truly the ignorance of youth and why so many teenagers get in trouble.
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Old 31-07-2008, 19:15   #99
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I said for those who choose to take on a risky voyage. I did not say all cruisers, including those cruisers who are being as safe as is reasonably possible. No, I don't like New Zealand's policy, but then I respect their reasons. But if someone wants to get in a home made aluminum garbage can with bad welds and very questionable engineering, then they should be required to post a bond for their rescue because the probability is extraordinarily high that they will be needing a rescue.

There is no perfect solution but I think posting a bond for rescue comes closest in terms of keeping the taxpayers from having to pick up the costs of someone else's risky venture. Hey, if you don't need a rescue for doing something very risky, then you get your money back!
And just how do you think a government employee who may not even know how to sail would evaluate that? The government program would cost more than the rescues, and would lead to regulations like NZ that would cost us much more than an occasional search for the clueless. I sailed across the Pacific with no life raft and no broadcast radio. If I were a NZ citizen with a NZ boat, that would have been illegal. Maybe you agree that it should be-but I don't, and I certainly have enough disaster free sea miles to have an informed opinion.
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Old 31-07-2008, 19:31   #100
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And just how do you think a government employee who may not even know how to sail would evaluate that? The government program would cost more than the rescues, and would lead to regulations like NZ that would cost us much more than an occasional search for the clueless. I sailed across the Pacific with no life raft and no broadcast radio. If I were a NZ citizen with a NZ boat, that would have been illegal. Maybe you agree that it should be-but I don't, and I certainly have enough disaster free sea miles to have an informed opinion.
First, you don't hire employees who don't know port from starboard to make that determination. How do you know what such a program would cost? I have never seen New Zealands budget for enforcing their laws concerning yachts about to leave port for deep water. The idea is to save money on rescues and I am sure that if they were spending more on bureaucrats than they were saving on rescues that the program would come to an end.

The risk you choose to take for yourself is fine. That's your business. Don't assume though that because you choose to go without a raft, radio or whatever safety equipment and never have had to use them over thousands of miles so far, that you never will have a need for safety equipment. Your a sailor, you know as well as I that stuff happens. Even the best, most experienced and knowledgeable sailors have stuff happen to them.
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Old 31-07-2008, 20:26   #101
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First, you don't hire employees who don't know port from starboard to make that determination. How do you know what such a program would cost? I have never seen New Zealands budget for enforcing their laws concerning yachts about to leave port for deep water. The idea is to save money on rescues and I am sure that if they were spending more on bureaucrats than they were saving on rescues that the program would come to an end.

The risk you choose to take for yourself is fine. That's your business. Don't assume though that because you choose to go without a raft, radio or whatever safety equipment and never have had to use them over thousands of miles so far, that you never will have a need for safety equipment. Your a sailor, you know as well as I that stuff happens. Even the best, most experienced and knowledgeable sailors have stuff happen to them.
I can make a pretty good tally of what the stuff that NZ yachties have to buy costs, and it is a lot. Many people besides me regard rescue by a ship as being at least as dangerous as what one is being rescued from. If you don't know that, you haven't done much research on the subject. Further, we had a pretty extensive discussion of life rafts on another thread, and even people who sell them and service them said they have a very high failure rate. IMHO, they are high priced failure prone kiddy wading pools. Many places I have been, the idea that someone would hear and rescue you was pretty clearly unlikely.

As far as I am concerned, if your idea of safety at sea revolves around stuff that requires you to be rescued by somebody else, you aren't very different that the clueless guy you criticize. From where I sit, you both ultimately expect someone else to take care of you--a philosophy which is abhorent to me as an ethic, and which I also consider to be a poor survival strategy.
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Old 31-07-2008, 20:36   #102
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I think the word "stupid" could be substituted for the word "naive". Lack of intelligence and lack of knowledge are really two different things. Everything your saying though makes perfect sense.

Gawd...hopefully most of us are at level 4. It really is true that the more you learn the more you realize how much you still have to learn. Level one is truly the ignorance of youth and why so many teenagers get in trouble.
I know that I'm at level 2, hoping to make progress to level 3.

You are certainly correct re a lot of teenagers.
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Old 01-08-2008, 10:55   #103
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The four stages of knowledge (I paraphrase)

1/ You're so stupid that you don't even know that you're stupid.
2/ You realize that you're stupid.
2.1 / You begin to amass knowledge and experience and think you are doing Ok (or have totally cracked it ).
3/ You begin to amass knowledge and experience but realize that you still have much to learn.
4/ You have amassed enough knowledge and experience to become competant while at the same time realizing that you'll never know everything.
Not specific only to boats of course.......
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Old 01-08-2008, 13:50   #104
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I can make a pretty good tally of what the stuff that NZ yachties have to buy costs, and it is a lot. Many people besides me regard rescue by a ship as being at least as dangerous as what one is being rescued from. If you don't know that, you haven't done much research on the subject. Further, we had a pretty extensive discussion of life rafts on another thread, and even people who sell them and service them said they have a very high failure rate. IMHO, they are high priced failure prone kiddy wading pools. Many places I have been, the idea that someone would hear and rescue you was pretty clearly unlikely.

As far as I am concerned, if your idea of safety at sea revolves around stuff that requires you to be rescued by somebody else, you aren't very different that the clueless guy you criticize. From where I sit, you both ultimately expect someone else to take care of you--a philosophy which is abhorent to me as an ethic, and which I also consider to be a poor survival strategy.
The characteristics that you describe me by are inaccurate. Lets just say that as two mature adults, we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

David
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Old 01-08-2008, 14:42   #105
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The characteristics that you describe me by are inaccurate. Lets just say that as two mature adults, we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

David
That showed a lot of class David.....well done!
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