ICW "Pirates". Have you Seen?

[BandB]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Jazz

sorry, correction. after judgment and found guilty then a warrant can then be issued.

There is no found guilty in a civil case. There is winner and loser.

That's where a lot of people are assuming more would happen than could. This was only a civil manner. The local prosecutor said he did not have a case to make criminal charges.

Here is why he said that:

For it to be criminal, then they had to have known the check they had Pat deposit was no good. The prosecution has to prove they knew. That would require tracing to how they received it and then tracing it back from there. If it came to them in the mail, even from someone else who knew it was no good, doesn't prove they did. Or if they created it, you'd have to figure out where and how.

Now you and I know or think it's reasonable to assume they knew it was no good when they gave it to Pat. But a criminal case requires beyond a reasonable doubt. Now the civil case only requires a preponderance of evidence plus doesn't require it be fraud, simply that the check was no good.

Had they written a bad check in their names to Pat, then you would have had a criminal charge. It's a common scam, referred to as the "Nigerian Scam" by law enforcement. Every day people are told they won something and sent checks to deposit while told just to return part of that amount. They deposit the check, send money out, and days later find out the check was bogus. The people who defrauded them are beyond the reach of local law enforcement.

Answer is never deposit a check you don't know in your account and never deposit a check and give someone money for it.

[Jimmy Jazz]

Originally Posted by BandB

There is no found guilty in a civil case. There is winner and loser.

That's where a lot of people are assuming more would happen than could. This was only a civil manner. The local prosecutor said he did not have a case to make criminal charges.

Here is why he said that:

For it to be criminal, then they had to have known the check they had Pat deposit was no good. The prosecution has to prove they knew. That would require tracing to how they received it and then tracing it back from there. If it came to them in the mail, even from someone else who knew it was no good, doesn't prove they did. Or if they created it, you'd have to figure out where and how.

Now you and I know or think it's reasonable to assume they knew it was no good when they gave it to Pat. But a criminal case requires beyond a reasonable doubt. Now the civil case only requires a preponderance of evidence plus doesn't require it be fraud, simply that the check was no good.

Had they written a bad check in their names to Pat, then you would have had a criminal charge. It's a common scam, referred to as the "Nigerian Scam" by law enforcement. Every day people are told they won something and sent checks to deposit while told just to return part of that amount. They deposit the check, send money out, and days later find out the check was bogus. The people who defrauded them are beyond the reach of local law enforcement.

Answer is never deposit a check you don't know in your account and never deposit a check and give someone money for it.

im good with what ever your cause is. up here, if a judgement is made against you while you have chose not to show up to court, a WARRANT FOR YOUR ARREST will be issued for you to appear in front of that judge so some means of arrangement can be made for re reimbursements

[frank_f]

Originally Posted by BandB

The last post mentioned giving liveaboards a bad name. Absolutely. And that's wrong. But that is also why it's in the best interest of liveaboards to help find solutions to help communities deal with boats like Primadonna. If not then the risk is that the entire group might suffer because of the actions of a few.

The real question is how do you stop this type of behaviour?

Do you cut their anchor cable and tow them out of the harbour? A midnight dive with a compressed air hole saw? Just kidding (or am I? )

Based on this and what we hear about the rest of the boat bums, it wouldn't surprise me if less expensive vessels find that they are not welcome in most anchorages. No matter what their intentions or net worth.

That would be sad indeed since I don't own a 50' gold plater or keep a six figure balance in my bank account (unless you count what's after the decimal point).

[BandB]

Originally Posted by frank_f

The real question is how do you stop this type of behaviour?

Do you cut their anchor cable and tow them out of the harbour? A midnight dive with a compressed air hole saw? Just kidding (or am I? )

Based on this and what we hear about the rest of the boat bums, it wouldn't surprise me if less expensive vessels find that they are not welcome in most anchorages. No matter what their intentions or net worth.

That would be sad indeed since I don't own a 50' gold plater or keep a six figure balance in my bank account (unless you count what's after the decimal point).

That is the big question. How do you eliminate the Primadonna's without hurting others.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Irish rambler

One things for sure guys, even if you had all the warrants in creation if they get themselves into French jurisdiction the French legal system has procrastination down to a fine art and the Gendarme couldn't care less. So don't hold your hand over your ass waiting.
The reason I posted the photo's was that if they were repatriated they would probably return to the boat on the Canal du Midi if it's not been removed and chain sawed, and maybe some hotshot lawyer could get it sequestered.
Sheesh but these people give us live aboards a bad name.

Hey criticise the people not the French system. Don't show your complete ignorance.

Dave


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[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by frank_f

The real question is how do you stop this type of behaviour?



Do you cut their anchor cable and tow them out of the harbour? A midnight dive with a compressed air hole saw? Just kidding (or am I? )



Based on this and what we hear about the rest of the boat bums, it wouldn't surprise me if less expensive vessels find that they are not welcome in most anchorages. No matter what their intentions or net worth.



That would be sad indeed since I don't own a 50' gold plater or keep a six figure balance in my bank account (unless you count what's after the decimal point).

Sure why not round up a posse of " good ol guys" and hang em from the nearest tree. Plenty of precedent. We all have bums and petty thieves to deal with, it's why we have a legal system.

Dave


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[BandB]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Jazz

im good with what ever your cause is. up here, if a judgement is made against you while you have chose not to show up to court, a WARRANT FOR YOUR ARREST will be issued for you to appear in front of that judge so some means of arrangement can be made for re reimbursements

A bench warrant may in some circumstances be issued for failure to appear in a civil case. But before a failure to appear, you must have a summons, and to my knowledge there was never a summons delivered to him in this case. That's why people go to great effort sometimes to avoid being served with a summons. Failure to respond to a legally served summons may lead to a bench warrant.

Also in this case even if it reached the point of a bench warrant, it would be of no value. He's long out of jurisdiction. So then the next possibility is a default judgement.

Once a judgement is granted, the creditor can then record a lien on the property of the debtor. The judgement doesn't lead to a warrant, just a lien. But to perfect the lien it must be recorded in the county in which the property is located.

Again in this case even if a judgement was issued no way to record the lien. The complexity and cost of recording a lien on property in the Bahamas based on a judgement in Oriental would be huge.

It's all a non case. Once Primadonna pulled away from Oriental, it was all over.

[goboatingnow]

I think they were towed away " nes-pas "


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[BandB]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think they were towed away " nes-pas "


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Fact is they are a terrible annoyance but on the scale of problems 1 to 10 they'd never exceed a 2 and probably not reach that. They're an eyesore. They're petty thieves. They're con artists but for small amounts, not like Moses Pray, although he was a nicer con artist perhaps. No one is going to spend a lot of time or money in apprehending and punishing them.

They appear to be entertaining based on the popularity of this topic.

[Coops]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think they were towed away " nes-pas "


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Always like a bit of "pidgin" French.

Coops.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Coops

Always like a bit of "pidgin" French.

Coops.

I struggle with English spelling too you know


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[Coops]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I struggle with English spelling too you know


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Yes!

Coops.

[frank_f]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sure why not round up a posse of " good ol guys" and hang em from the nearest tree. Plenty of precedent. We all have bums and petty thieves to deal with, it's why we have a legal system.

Dave


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Guess I should have put in smiley faces.

The legal system certainly worked here didn't it. Hasn't the last few pages about how the legal system failed miserably?

[BandB]

Originally Posted by frank_f

Guess I should have put in smiley faces.

The legal system certainly worked here didn't it. Hasn't the last few pages about how the legal system failed miserably?

I don't really agree with that as a conclusion. The legal system isn't designed to address and resolve every issue to satisfaction. People can manipulate any system. But really what would you expect a system to do? Should he have been jailed immediately when there was an issue with the check? Held until a trial even though there's not even proof of a crime? That's why we have civil trials and small claims courts, but when it's a non citizen and they leave that's not going to be covered. And sometimes our courts can't protect us from ourselves either. The number of scams run against seniors is horrifying. From gypsy roofers to television infomercials. The most cruel one is pretending to be a grandson or granddaughter and in trouble and needing money so having granny wire it. One of most shown infomercial products right now is $99 plus you get more free items. Only problem is by the time all the shipping and handling is added up it costs $260. Money back guarantee but if you want to return it shipping and handling isn't refunded plus you're responsible for return shipping and must return it all so maybe you'll net $60-70 back.

My mother's car was run into in Florida and the truck doing it identified, license as well. Driver got out of there to Georgia quickly. Nothing could be done. Just a warrant in Florida for him. Who knows if he ever returned to Florida, got stopped and got taken to jail for an outstanding warrant. In addition he denied it to his insurer so they didn't cover it either.

Enron to me is a failure of our systems with the destruction to so many lives. Primadonna is a most unfortunate abuse and a mistake by a kind decent man in Pat.

[Irish rambler]

goboatingnow.
Actually I've been a victim in France and quite lengthily involved (6 yrs)first hand with the French legal system which is why I am able to make an informed comment.
As for the other 2 reprobates I think the best medicine would be 'rough justice'.