Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-01-2014, 14:08   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Panama City, Panama
Boat: Hunter 42 Passage
Posts: 318
Send a message via Skype™ to Panamajames
I Told Everyone to Avoid Mexico. Here we go...

January 8, 2014 World of Latitude 38

For the sake of American and Canadian boat owners, the country of Mexico, marine businesses and workers in Mexico, and marine businesses and workers on the west coast of the United States, we beseech you to take a few minutes to send your thoughts to Mexican and US officials, as well as the US media. This is very important, as we need thousands of emails sent to make an impact.

At the bottom of this page, we'll provide a list of officials and their email addresses. If they are Mexican, send the Spanish version of the letter we provide or a Google translation of one of the short sample messages. In the case of President Obama, Secretary of State John Kerry, US House of Representatives Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, Senators Feinstein and Boxer, it's a little more complicated, as you generally have to fill out your name and address before you can send a message. Please don't let this be an obstacle, as it's important to get their attention or that of their underlings.

If you want to keep it short and quick, send a message similar to one of the following:

1) I have followed the reports of tens of millions of dollars worth of US and Canadian boats having been illegally impounded in Mexico for more than a month. These boats need to be permitted free transit as guaranteed by international maritime law.

2) I have cruised Mexico aboard my boat before and loved the country and the people. But the unfortunate illegal impounding of 338 US and Canadian boats means I will not be returning any time soon.

3) I have spent years preparing my boat for a cruise to Mexico, Central America and the South Pacific. The actions of AGACE have convinced me it's not safe for foreigners to bring their vessels to Mexico, so I will reluctantly bypass Mexico.

4) I was about to buy a boat/condo/property in Mexico. If AGACE can illegally impound foreign boats, there is no way I can believe my investment will be safe, so I am looking elsewhere to invest.

You get the idea. All these represent the thoughts contained in letters we've received at Latitude 38. Length and formality of emails are nowhere near as important as the number of emails. Be respectful, and please realize the actions of AGACE absolutely do not reflect the attitude of Mexico as a whole. President Pena Nieto, Immigration, Tourism and other major industries have emphatically been encouraging nautical tourism and trying making it easier for visitors.

If you want to get a more detailed message and explanation of the situation, we've created the following letter for your consideration. The President of the Mexican Marina Owner's Association has read it and said " . . . it describes the problem very clearly." The Spanish translation was done by the manager of a marina in Mexico that has not be hit by AGACE, but he is frightened not just for his marina, but for the entire marine industry in Mexico.

THE ENGLISH VERSION:

Three hundred and thirty-eight pleasure vessels worth tens of millions of dollars continue to be illegally impounded at 12 marinas in Mexico. Most of the vessels are American and Canadian, and range in value from $10,000 to several million dollars. In many instances these boats represent the single most valuable financial asset of the owners.

I am urging your help in seeing that this injustice as well as the damage to the reputation of Mexico is brought to an immediate halt.

In late November about 100 auditors of the AGACE division of SAT (the Mexican IRS), backed by a large contingent of marines armed with machine guns, descended on seven marinas in Mexico, from Ensenada to Acapulco and Puerto Vallarta to Cancun. Their goal was to make sure that all the boats in the marinas complied with Mexico's very reasonable regulations for visits by foreign vessels, and they ended up thinking they had caught over three hundred foreign boat owners who owed big tax bills.

Unfortunately, the head of the relatively new agency, which is charged with overseeing the importation of 'merchandise' to Mexico, is a politico and did not understand that foreign cruising vessels are not imported "merchandise" like appliances or electronics, but rather a very valuable part of the nautical tourism industry. Foreign cruising vessels are not in Mexico for permanent importation, which is why they are issued 10-Year Temporary Import Permits.

Most of the 338 vessels that AGACE claimed were out of compliance were not out of compliance. The problem was that the owners were not aboard, and thus were not able to show auditors their Temporary Import Permits, the location where their HIN numbers were permanently engraved in the hulls, the engine serial numbers and so forth. It did not help that the auditors knew nothing about boats and were thus unable to distinguish between basic things such as boat brands from brands of electronic components in the boats.

Much of Mexican law is based on Napoleanic law, so if the boat owner wasn't around to show AGACE agents the necessary paperwork and numbers, the boat was assumed to be out of compliance, and thus put in 'precautionary embargo'. Embargoed boats are not permitted to leave the dock. Astonishingly, AGACE has yet to officially inform a single boat owner that their boat has been impounded, so many boat owners still aren't even aware that their boats have been impounded.

About a week after the initial raid, AGACE did a second check, usually with marina managers and their lawyers present, and found out that almost every boat they had impounded was actually in compliance with Mexican law. You would think that AGACE would immediately release these innocent boats. Alas, AGACE has said it will take 45 to 120 days for them to complete the paperwork necessary to do this.

This delay in freeing the boats is both outrageous and in violation of international maritime law that guarantees free passage of vessels except in cases where a crime has been committed. The damage can also be seen in the sudden lack of interest by Americans in racing to Mexico, the cancellation of a three-race series from San Diego to Mexico, and American cruisers vowing never to bring their boats to Mexico. The reason is simple: foreigners now have reason to fear that their financial assets and investments can be capriciously taken from their control. Officials of other branches of Mexican government, such as Tourism, have understandably been horrified by this action by AGACE, which they described as "ridiculous."

For the sake of the owners of these boats, as well as the wonderful country of Mexico and its people, I beseech you to do whatever you can to help resolve this unfortunate situation. Time is of the essence, for by the end of the week the Associated Press will be sending a story on this to every major newspaper and television station in the United States, at which point the damage to Mexico could be even more significant and long-lasting.

I want to emphasize that I, like all others who cruise Mexico, love Mexico, love the people of Mexico, and believe in full compliance with Mexico's laws. Please see that the best 'ambassadors for Mexico' don't become victims of the unfortunate misunderstanding of the law by one small agency of the Mexican government.
__________________

__________________
Sailing is 80% boredom and 20% sheer terror so FIRSTMATE then go sailing. Life is a journey, not a destination.
Panamajames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 14:39   #2
Registered User
 
TacomaSailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Burnt Store Marina, SW Florida
Boat: Caliber 40
Posts: 1,148
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

I sent a letter to the Mexican Consulate in San Diego and received a prompt reply. I am concerned because they did not address the problem of how to get an embargoed boat off the embargo list.

I guess Mexican authorities are confident they were only following the proper procedures when seizing the boats in Western Mexico. I am not sure that a letter writing will accomplish very much.


**** Following is the response from the Mexican Consulate in San Diego ****


Thank you for sending us your note about the recent seizures of foreign boats in Mexico. We will convey your concern to the proper authorities in our government.

We realize that the great majority of foreign boat owners stationed in Mexico have the proper permits and do not have any problems. However, as you mention in your note, AGACE is empowered by Mexican law to conduct verification procedures and apply penalties when necessary.

We will keep you posted on the latest developments regarding this issue. In the meantime, we hope that you return to our country very soon.

*** End of Response from Mexican Consulate ****

**** My letter to Mexican Consulate in San Diego ****


I wish to express my concern about the recent "precautionary embargo" of 338 foreign flagged boats in Western Mexico. I have read many reputable articles about the unusual seizures of those boats by agents of AGACE (Haceinda) who did not properly verify the Temporary Import Permit papers presented to them. I am particularly concerned about the difficulty owners of those boats have had in removing the temporary embargoes after presenting all necessary and valid paperwork to AGACE (Hacienda) agents.

I have received personal correspondence from several boat owners who have retained Mexican lawyers to deal with AGACE (Hacienda). Those lawyers and the marina officials where the boats are moored have shown AGACE personal all necessary and valid documents for the embargoed vessels. The only response from AGACE has been that a decision may be made within 120 days. The owners of the embargoed boats are unable to use their boats until AGACE removes the embargo. In many cases, those boats are the only home the owners have and the embargo is placing an dramatic strain on their personal finances.

I know of several boats who did present all necessary and valid TIP, insurance, proof of ownership documents to the AGACE (Hacienda) agents during the initial inspections. Those agents misread or did not understand the boat documents or boat name, model, or Hull Identification Number. The agents then embargoed the boats despite the boat owners providing all proper and necessary documents. None of those boats have been released from the state of "precautionary embargo" and the owners have not been told how to regain usage of their boats.

**** End of my letter to Mexican Consulate in San Diego ****
__________________

__________________
TacomaSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 14:51   #3
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,942
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

Good idea, and good luck with the campaign.

On Sunday I dropped an email to the Mexican Consulate in Toronto, asking about clarification of the rules re foreign boats, some info about how/when a foreign boat can be embargoed, steps to clear the embargo if papers are in order, and what Mexican authority can adjudicate in case of dispute.

Haven't heard back yet.
__________________
Lake-Effect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 17:28   #4
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

Best of luck to everybody.
__________________
The Blue Dot Campaign. This Changes Everything.
DeepFrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 18:34   #5
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

This really sounds like a third-world hostage situation. In most cases where stuff doesn't make sense, follow the money. A pirate is a pirate is a pirate. Are the officials looking for 'baksheesh"? The lawyers & marinas clearly have nothing to loose either. Is this political retaliation for some wrong done to Mexico by the US? Perhaps we need to garnish all wages of Mexicans working in the US so funds to home are cut off. If that's too cruel, otherwise stop subsidizing their economy. I was so looking forward to sailing there.

How many of these boaters will wind up in the wrong place at the wrong season due to this and/or funds stripped?
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 19:14   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
Ocean Girl's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: In transit ( Texas to wherever the wind blows us)
Boat: Pacific Seacraft a Crealock 34
Posts: 4,115
Images: 2
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

I LOVE Mexico, hope it gets cleared up soon and some lessons ( on both sides) are learned. Letter writing is a great way to let all folks involved know that it is an important issue to you. Having cruised the east coat I never had a problem, we really want to cruise the west side, but will see how all this pans out(not ready anyways).
__________________
Mrs. Rain Dog~Ocean Girl
https://raindogps34.wordpress.com
Ocean Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 19:53   #7
Registered User
 
Samantha ann's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Charleston SC
Boat: 34 Irwin
Posts: 175
Maybe what needs to be done is to a" protective hold" on all personal and business transfer of money to Mexico. That would get the attention of allot of people. Many Mexicans working in the US wire dollars to family back home in Mexico. I believe this would solve this problem quickly!
__________________
Samantha ann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 20:24   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

Yeah, penalize the poor that are working for slave wages anyway. That will get the notice of the powerful who run the gov't organizations.
__________________
The Blue Dot Campaign. This Changes Everything.
DeepFrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2014, 20:39   #9
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: north carolina
Boat: command yachtsdouglas32
Posts: 3,113
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamajames View Post
January 8, 2014 World of Latitude 38

For the sake of American and Canadian boat owners, the country of Mexico, marine businesses and workers in Mexico, and marine businesses and workers on the west coast of the United States, we beseech you to take a few minutes to send your thoughts to Mexican and US officials, as well as the US media. This is very important, as we need thousands of emails sent to make an impact.

At the bottom of this page, we'll provide a list of officials and their email addresses. If they are Mexican, send the Spanish version of the letter we provide or a Google translation of one of the short sample messages. In the case of President Obama, Secretary of State John Kerry, US House of Representatives Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, Senators Feinstein and Boxer, it's a little more complicated, as you generally have to fill out your name and address before you can send a message. Please don't let this be an obstacle, as it's important to get their attention or that of their underlings.

If you want to keep it short and quick, send a message similar to one of the following:

1) I have followed the reports of tens of millions of dollars worth of US and Canadian boats having been illegally impounded in Mexico for more than a month. These boats need to be permitted free transit as guaranteed by international maritime law.

2) I have cruised Mexico aboard my boat before and loved the country and the people. But the unfortunate illegal impounding of 338 US and Canadian boats means I will not be returning any time soon.

3) I have spent years preparing my boat for a cruise to Mexico, Central America and the South Pacific. The actions of AGACE have convinced me it's not safe for foreigners to bring their vessels to Mexico, so I will reluctantly bypass Mexico.

4) I was about to buy a boat/condo/property in Mexico. If AGACE can illegally impound foreign boats, there is no way I can believe my investment will be safe, so I am looking elsewhere to invest.

You get the idea. All these represent the thoughts contained in letters we've received at Latitude 38. Length and formality of emails are nowhere near as important as the number of emails. Be respectful, and please realize the actions of AGACE absolutely do not reflect the attitude of Mexico as a whole. President Pena Nieto, Immigration, Tourism and other major industries have emphatically been encouraging nautical tourism and trying making it easier for visitors.

If you want to get a more detailed message and explanation of the situation, we've created the following letter for your consideration. The President of the Mexican Marina Owner's Association has read it and said " . . . it describes the problem very clearly." The Spanish translation was done by the manager of a marina in Mexico that has not be hit by AGACE, but he is frightened not just for his marina, but for the entire marine industry in Mexico.

THE ENGLISH VERSION:

Three hundred and thirty-eight pleasure vessels worth tens of millions of dollars continue to be illegally impounded at 12 marinas in Mexico. Most of the vessels are American and Canadian, and range in value from $10,000 to several million dollars. In many instances these boats represent the single most valuable financial asset of the owners.

I am urging your help in seeing that this injustice as well as the damage to the reputation of Mexico is brought to an immediate halt.

In late November about 100 auditors of the AGACE division of SAT (the Mexican IRS), backed by a large contingent of marines armed with machine guns, descended on seven marinas in Mexico, from Ensenada to Acapulco and Puerto Vallarta to Cancun. Their goal was to make sure that all the boats in the marinas complied with Mexico's very reasonable regulations for visits by foreign vessels, and they ended up thinking they had caught over three hundred foreign boat owners who owed big tax bills.

Unfortunately, the head of the relatively new agency, which is charged with overseeing the importation of 'merchandise' to Mexico, is a politico and did not understand that foreign cruising vessels are not imported "merchandise" like appliances or electronics, but rather a very valuable part of the nautical tourism industry. Foreign cruising vessels are not in Mexico for permanent importation, which is why they are issued 10-Year Temporary Import Permits.

Most of the 338 vessels that AGACE claimed were out of compliance were not out of compliance. The problem was that the owners were not aboard, and thus were not able to show auditors their Temporary Import Permits, the location where their HIN numbers were permanently engraved in the hulls, the engine serial numbers and so forth. It did not help that the auditors knew nothing about boats and were thus unable to distinguish between basic things such as boat brands from brands of electronic components in the boats.

Much of Mexican law is based on Napoleanic law, so if the boat owner wasn't around to show AGACE agents the necessary paperwork and numbers, the boat was assumed to be out of compliance, and thus put in 'precautionary embargo'. Embargoed boats are not permitted to leave the dock. Astonishingly, AGACE has yet to officially inform a single boat owner that their boat has been impounded, so many boat owners still aren't even aware that their boats have been impounded.

About a week after the initial raid, AGACE did a second check, usually with marina managers and their lawyers present, and found out that almost every boat they had impounded was actually in compliance with Mexican law. You would think that AGACE would immediately release these innocent boats. Alas, AGACE has said it will take 45 to 120 days for them to complete the paperwork necessary to do this.

This delay in freeing the boats is both outrageous and in violation of international maritime law that guarantees free passage of vessels except in cases where a crime has been committed. The damage can also be seen in the sudden lack of interest by Americans in racing to Mexico, the cancellation of a three-race series from San Diego to Mexico, and American cruisers vowing never to bring their boats to Mexico. The reason is simple: foreigners now have reason to fear that their financial assets and investments can be capriciously taken from their control. Officials of other branches of Mexican government, such as Tourism, have understandably been horrified by this action by AGACE, which they described as "ridiculous."

For the sake of the owners of these boats, as well as the wonderful country of Mexico and its people, I beseech you to do whatever you can to help resolve this unfortunate situation. Time is of the essence, for by the end of the week the Associated Press will be sending a story on this to every major newspaper and television station in the United States, at which point the damage to Mexico could be even more significant and long-lasting.

I want to emphasize that I, like all others who cruise Mexico, love Mexico, love the people of Mexico, and believe in full compliance with Mexico's laws. Please see that the best 'ambassadors for Mexico' don't become victims of the unfortunate misunderstanding of the law by one small agency of the Mexican government.
I started a used clothing business in Mexico and spent lots of time ,energy and money before being told I could not continue..I thought NAFTA was a two way street,Wrong! I found out right fast that the folks in charge down there do what they want ,when they want !! Good luck trying to convince the "mexican government" they are "hurting tourism"..Ha ha ha, what does Jim sing about "you dont spit into the wind,"you dont pull the mask off the old long ranger and you dont mess around with "the Mexican government"!! Good luck ,they are doing what they want to do when they want to do it and I dont think "We" will make any difference ..Dont mean to be pessamistic,I really do wish you good luck(your going to need it ,lots of it!)
__________________
tropicalescape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2014, 02:59   #10
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

I would be surprised if theses letters gets any response, firstly it claims the actions are Illegal" on what basis is that claim being made

Secondly references are made continuously by this and other posters, about Napoleanic Law, clearly the posters know nothing about Napoleanic Law ( or Civil code). Under Napoleanic law you are clearly innocent until proven innocent, if fact Napoleon wrote the civil code to ensure the citizenry were protected from arbitrary remand, a situation that was common in france.

It should also be noted that Mexico deviates considerably from the Napoleanic Code,as do most countries at this stage.


I do not think the solution to this issue is advanced by claiming illegalities etc without any basis

dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2014, 04:19   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
DoubleWhisky's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home at Warsaw, Poland, boat in Eastern Med
Boat: Ocean Star 56.1 LR
Posts: 1,841
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

I'm already surprised, as this time i have to fully agree with Your views...

Regards

Tomasz

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I would be surprised if theses letters gets any response, firstly it claims the actions are Illegal" on what basis is that claim being made

Secondly references are made continuously by this and other posters, about Napoleanic Law, clearly the posters know nothing about Napoleanic Law ( or Civil code). Under Napoleanic law you are clearly innocent until proven innocent, if fact Napoleon wrote the civil code to ensure the citizenry were protected from arbitrary remand, a situation that was common in france.

It should also be noted that Mexico deviates considerably from the Napoleanic Code,as do most countries at this stage.


I do not think the solution to this issue is advanced by claiming illegalities etc without any basis

dave
__________________
DoubleWhisky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2014, 05:28   #12
Registered User
 
Dulcesuenos's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Florida Keys, Bahamas Bound
Boat: 38' French Cat
Posts: 2,828
Images: 4
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

I think all 300+ boats need to just leave all at once. I for one wont be sailing there anytime soon. If this is happening on one coast it could happen on the other.

Sent from my LG-LS980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Dulcesuenos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2014, 05:38   #13
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

The most amusing part of all this is that APPARENTLY it is Eric of Rebel Heart's fault.

ROTDLMFAO! (as is said.....apparently)
__________________

Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2014, 05:50   #14
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

Quote:
. These boats need to be permitted free transit as guaranteed by international maritime law.
Lol, this is the one that grabs me.

Right of free passage? Try that in the USA, or any country, when you slide in and drop the pick or chuck a line on a warfe.

Quote:
. The convention set the limit of various areas, measured from a carefully defined baseline. (Normally, a sea baseline follows the low-water line, but when the coastline is deeply indented, has fringing islands or is highly unstable, straight baselines may be used.) The areas are as follows:

Internal waters
Covers all water and waterways on the landward side of the baseline. The coastal state is free to set laws, regulate use, and use any resource. Foreign vessels have no right of passage within internal waters.

Territorial waters
Out to 12 nautical miles (22 kilometres; 14 miles) from the baseline, the coastal state is free to set laws, regulate use, and use any resource. Vessels were given the right of innocent passage through any territorial waters, with strategic straits allowing the passage of military craft as transit passage, in that naval vessels are allowed to maintain postures that would be illegal in territorial waters. "Innocent passage" is defined by the convention as passing through waters in an expeditious and continuous manner, which is not "prejudicial to the peace, good order or the security" of the coastal state. Fishing, polluting, weapons practice, and spying are not "innocent", and submarines and other underwater vehicles are required to navigate on the surface and to show their flag. Nations can also temporarily suspend innocent passage in specific areas of their territorial seas, if doing so is essential for the protection of its security.
United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A boat at anchor is not "passing through waters in an expeditious and continuous manner". So there aint no spicey freedom of the seas imagined.


Mark
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2014, 09:06   #15
Senior Cruiser
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 7,930
Re: I told everyone to avoid MEXICO. Here we go...

I wish them all luck but am afraid they are in for a lot of trouble.
__________________

__________________
The Blue Dot Campaign. This Changes Everything.
DeepFrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Mexico, mexico

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.