How to test sail an Ovni

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

I spent the better part of an afternoon in Hawaii talking with Jimmy Cornell many years ago about the sailing characteristics of his then new Ovni. He loved it under spinnaker with the board up as it had no keel to trip over so it just slid around going downwind and was very easy to steer in almost any condition however he said the boats weak point was going upwind. He asked me how I sailed upwind in a breeze offshore and I told him I usually slowed the boat down a bit and tried to come up and over the waves rather than punching through them. Exactly he said, his experience with the Ovni was that the drop down keel was not that effective unless you were really moving and if you were really moving you got the sh*t kicked out of you.

He seems not to have been discouraged by the lesser upwind performance of that type of boats since he bought a Garcia 45 that is in what regards hull and appendices a beefed up Allures 45 (that is lighter and faster than the Garcia).

The boats and centerboards have been improved since the days he had his OVNI (much deeper) and today the performance upwind is considerable better even in what regards the OVNI (the Allures have a better performance).

Not the same performance upwind your boat can do even less the one mine can offer but I would say a performance comparable to some old full keeler. Regarding your boat I would say an Allures will lose about 5 to 7º pointing ability.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Polux, you keep your finger on the pulse of the new boat market much better than I do.

I thought the price of new Ovnis and Boreals were reasonably close, but It sounds like I am wrong. I get the impression Boreal are holding their second hand prices a bit better than Ovni. Perhaps because of the smaller number of second hand Boreals are available, but these prices are hard to pin down.

Of course the base price means little, as you need to "option up" the specs to an equal level to compare the true costs. My internet connection is terrible at this anchorage so I cannot really check, but would be interested in your thoughts.

With Garcia and Ovni I agree. Garcias are a round bilge construction with a more upmarket interior and therefore considerably more expensive.

Allures are great boats, but with their fibreglass deck they do not have the same construction.

I see the fiberglass deck as an advantage since it allows it to have a lower CG and with most Ballast on the external part of the hull (like Boreal) it allows it to have an AVS very similar to a deep keel but, far away from the one of an OVNI.

Note that the Garcia are made by Allures and that the hull is practically the same with some more reinforcements (that make them heavier and slower).

If I intended to sail most of the time on North latitudes and go exploring uncharted waters I would chose a Garcia (or a Boreal), but for doing that just once and sailing most of the time where most people sail, on the trade winds or on the cruising grounds, I would choose an Allures. Better overall performance and a boat much nicer to live on warm climates. The better price for what you get and in what regards quality/price too.

Regarding prices I think all those boats have a good resale value. The OVNIS are cheaper and therefore are cheaper to buy used.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I agree with the differences in sailing characteristics, although it is small.

Ovni have traditionally used ballast in the bilge. Boreal, Allures, and Garcia have concentrated the weight in the sub keel and taken some steps to lower the engine and anchor chain weight. Ovni do use lead ballast (as opposed to steel in Allures and Garcia) which does compensate for some of the difference.

In addition, Boreal Garcia and Allures use fully profiled keel shapes. The overall changes have helped stability and sailing performance, but I don't think the improvements are great.

Note: these observations are generalisations. There are differences between the models in each range.

Ballast on the Allures and Boreal is lead too and that with most of it outside on the sub keel gives them a better stability and a higher AVS than the OVNIS. On the case of the Allures, a very light infused cored GRP deck further contributes to lower the CG and increases even more stability.

Note that the GRP deck/hull connection on the Allures is not like on all GRP boats, I mean the Aluminium hull extends inside to the deck for some 30cms and the deck is put over it, bonded and aluminium riveting. They use the system from the beginning without problems.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Polux

Ballast on the Allures and Boreal is lead too and that with most of it outside on the sub keel gives them a better stability and a higher AVS than the OVNIS. On the case of the Allures, a very light infused cored GRP deck further contributes to lower the CG and increases even more stability.

Note that the GRP deck/hull connection on the Allures is not like on all GRP boats, I mean the Aluminium hull extends inside to the deck for some 30cms and the deck is put over it. They use the system from the beginning without problems.

But you still have deck fitting and gear through bolted... eliminating one of the best features of an aluminum boat. No leaks.

Matt

[Polux]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

But you still have deck fitting and gear through bolted... eliminating one of the best features of an aluminum boat. No leaks.

Matt

As I said the aluminium continues towards the deck for 30cms or so and that means that most fittings are on aluminium.

As always there is advantages and disadvantages. On this case the advantage is a superior stability and a better AVS. I have to say that I would not fell very comfortable with AVS as low as 105/107 degrees that are common on some OVNIS. Now they tend to have them a bit better but even so far away from the about 120º of an Allures.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

He seems not to have been discouraged by the lesser upwind performance of that type of boats since he bought a Garcia 45 that is in what regards hull and appendices a beefed up Allures 45 (that is lighter and faster than the Garcia).

The boats and centerboards have been improved since the days he had his OVNI (much deeper) and today the performance upwind is considerable better even in what regards the OVNI (the Allures have a better performance).

Not the same performance upwind your boat can do even less the one mine can offer but I would say a performance comparable to some old full keeler. Regarding your boat I would say an Allures will lose about 5 to 7º pointing ability.

I didn't suggest he was discouraged, he was simply pragmatic and honest about a boat that he was delighted with. He had nothing but praises for the boat other than its windward performance. He was just returning from the Antarctic via the South Pacific, Hawaii and then Vancouver before shipping his boat back to Europe, so he was stacking up the miles.

[Eleuthera 2014]

Kanter and Van Den Stadt also have nice offerings in alu.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Polux

I see the fiberglass deck as an advantage since it allows it to have a lower CG

Allures are excellent boats, but I don't believe the fibreglass deck is lighter than the aluminium alternative, despite the factory claims. Allures are competing for market share with Ovni and Boreal, both of which produce boats with an aluminium deck so Allures can be forgiven for some understandable enthusiasm for their construction method.

It is hard to directly compare the "strength" of two different materials like fibreglass and aluminium. They have very different properties in many areas, puncture resistance for example.

However, for a boat structure built for similar requirements, aluminium is lighter than solid fibreglass, and about the same as the sort of cored structure used by fibreglass production boats. More exotic composite fibreglass structures (epoxy, or vinylester resin, extensive use of E glass etc) become lighter than aluminium. This can be extended further with epoxy carbon fibre and expensive cores, which can be much lighter again.

The above comparison is for a total boat structure. In a deck, the weight savings for composite structures are less than the above comparison suggests. In composite structures, around fittings the core needs to be replaced with (ideally) solid fibreglass or at least a less crushable and rot resistant core (therefore heavier).

This weight scale of construction materials is why top racing boats were invariably built in aluminium until the development of advanced composite structures that are significantly lighter (and more expensive) than the composite construction methods used in standard production boats.

The Allures deck is infused (which saves a bit of resin) but is otherwise a standard polyester cored fibreglass structure. This would have a very similar weight to the equivalent aluminium structure. The marriage of the aluminium hull and the fibreglass deck, the doubling up of materials over the join and allowances for the different properties of the materials such thermal expansion rates etc will add some extra weight compared boat built of a single material.

In short, I don't think the fibreglass deck combined with an aluminium hull has any weight savings despite the claims.

That is not to say it is not a clever idea. The aim is to combine the attributes of aluminium with the benefits of fibreglass.

On an aluminium boat the deck is an expensive part to make. The complex shapes on a deck require welding of multiple separate components in the manufacturing process. Fibreglass can easily and inexpensively produce very complex curves, which look attractive and help sell the boat. Allures yachts are great value.

I think there is a lot to admire about the Allures yachts. They have combined many advantages of aluminium and fibreglass, but they have also created something with a lot of drawbacks of both materials as well. They should not be regarded as an aluminium boat in the normal sense.

Originally Posted by Polux

Ballast on the Allures and Boreal is lead too

Ovni and Boreal use lead ballast, which I think is superior. Garcia use steel. I was under the impression Allures use steel as well, but I may be mistaken.

[lamadriver]

I'd love a Ovni 365. bank manager wont allow it. There are several forsale in the south Pacific. If you were buying in USD buying a new one at the moment coudl be a good deal, or buying a used one in Europe.

Good luck

LD

[kaerou]

I don't know about OVNIs, mine is also aliminium (thick) from META. What type of cruising are you going for? Med only or out on the oceans?

[Balance]

Thanks for the replies,(good info from the X men Noelex & Polux) think a Boreal or Garcia might be out of the budget but will have a look at a second hand Allures as it will be good to compare.
The idea is for us to buy the boat ( after squaring things up at home) in Europe and make our way slowly back to Australia.

Lots of choices.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Allures are excellent boats, but I don't believe the fibreglass deck is lighter than the aluminium alternative, despite the factory claims. Allures are competing for market share with Ovni and Boreal, both of which produce boats with an aluminium deck so Allures can be forgiven for some understandable enthusiasm for their construction method.

It is hard to directly compare the "strength" of two different materials like fibreglass and aluminium. They have very different properties in many areas, puncture resistance for example.

However, for a boat structure built for similar requirements, aluminium is lighter than solid fibreglass, and about the same as the sort of cored structure used by fibreglass production boats. More exotic composite fibreglass structures (epoxy, or vinylester resin, extensive use of E glass etc) become lighter than aluminium. This can be extended further with epoxy carbon fibre and expensive cores, which can be much lighter again.

The above comparison is for a total boat structure. In a deck, the weight savings for composite structures are less than the above comparison suggests. In composite structures, around fittings the core needs to be replaced with (ideally) solid fibreglass or at least a less crushable and rot resistant core (therefore heavier).

This weight scale of construction materials is why top racing boats were invariably built in aluminium until the development of advanced composite structures that are significantly lighter (and more expensive) than the composite construction methods used in standard production boats.

The Allures deck is infused (which saves a bit of resin) but is otherwise a standard polyester cored fibreglass structure. This would have a very similar weight to the equivalent aluminium structure. The marriage of the aluminium hull and the fibreglass deck, the doubling up of materials over the join and allowances for the different properties of the materials such thermal expansion rates etc will add some extra weight compared boat built of a single material.

In short, I don't think the fibreglass deck combined with an aluminium hull has any weight savings despite the claims.

That is not to say it is not a clever idea. The aim is to combine the attributes of aluminium with the benefits of fibreglass.

On an aluminium boat the deck is an expensive part to make. The complex shapes on a deck require welding of multiple separate components in the manufacturing process. Fibreglass can easily and inexpensively produce very complex curves, which look attractive and help sell the boat. Allures yachts are great value.

I think there is a lot to admire about the Allures yachts. They have combined many advantages of aluminium and fibreglass, but they have also created something with a lot of drawbacks of both materials as well. They should not be regarded as an aluminium boat in the normal sense.



Ovni and Boreal use lead ballast, which I think is superior. Garcia use steel. I was under the impression Allures use steel as well, but I may be mistaken.

It would not make any sense that they used a cored infused deck on an aluminium boat if it was not lighter. It would be much easier and cheaper to built it all in aluminium.

Probably thin aluminium not to bend needs a lot more structural support (that adds weight) to maintain the deck solid. A good cored deck has a surprising stiffness.

Regarding Allures to have lead ballast you can have a look at their boat files where the ballast material is clearly defined as lead (inventory) :

http://www.allures.fr/allures-45-7.html

I agree that both materials for the deck has advantages and disadvantages: more strong an all aluminium boat, more stability and a better AVS if you can lower the CG using a lighter deck and less structural support. As always you have to chose among compromises. For what I have observed through the years the Allures is strong enough for "normal" duty and I am a big fan of a stiff boats and a decent AVS.

The Dutch solved their problem on centerboarders putting a lot more ballast inside the boat so you can have a stronger boat with a decent AVS and final stability but then you have a much heavier and much slower boat. More compromises to chose

Not very popular the Dutch centerboarders, I would say a species almost in extinction.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Polux

It would not make any sense that they used a cored infused deck on an aluminium boat if it was not lighter. It would be much easier and cheaper to built it all in aluminium.

A structure with a multitude of compound curves is more expensive to build in aluminium. Unfortunately, I can attest to this first hand. I am contemplating considerably more for an aluminium hull where a near identical cored fibreglass hull is available.

Note the displacement and the ballast of the cored fibreglass and aluminium hull version are near identical. This is another example of the similar weight of the cored fibreglass structure and an aluminium structure, although I would argue the aluminium structure is a bit more rugged.

Fortunately, hull cost is small part of the overall boats costs. So a hull made of a material that is considerably more expensive will not add as much as expected to the overall boat cost.

Nevertheless, Allures with a fibreglass deck have managed to produce a round bilge aluminium hulled boat for a much lower cost than the equivalent Garcia and a price similar to the hard chine construction of Ovni and Boreal.

The compound curves that can be easily incorporated into the deck of the Allures together with the round bilge hull construction give a similar appearance to pure fibreglass boat attracting buyers that might not consider an aluminium hull otherwise.

It is a very clever and practical mix, but it is not done to make the deck lighter.

Originally Posted by Polux

Regarding Allures to have lead ballast you can have a look at their boat files where the ballast material is clearly defined as lead (inventory) :
http://www.allures.fr/allures-45-7.html

Thanks for the link. It looks like I was mistaken and as you say Allures use lead. Now that Garcia and Allures are under the same company umbrella it does get confusing. The same company are promoting the benefits of lead (Allures) and steel/iron (Garcia) as the best ballast.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

A structure with a multitude of compound curves is more expensive to build in aluminium. Unfortunately, I can attest to this first hand. I am contemplating considerably more for an aluminium hull where a near identical cored fibreglass hull is available.

...
Nevertheless, Allures with a fibreglass deck have managed to produce a round bilge aluminium hulled boat for a much lower cost than the equivalent Garcia and a price similar to the hard chine construction of Ovni and Boreal.

.. Now that Garcia and Allures are under the same company umbrella it does get confusing. The same company are promoting the benefits of lead (Allures) and steel/iron (Garcia) as the best ballast.

They are not only the same company as the Garcia hulls are the same as the Allures only with more interior reinforcements.

Regarding aluminium rounded hulls if you do them on a production line with very expensive machinery they will not be significantly more costly than a good cored vinilister/epoxy vacuum infused hull. Off course for that you need to produce a lot of boats and that is what Allures/Garcia does.

For instance an Allures 45 with a very good quality interior costs considerably less than a similar sized Malo, Halberg Rassy, Najad or Southerly.

An aluminium hand built hull made in very small quantities like the one of the Bestaever 49, or any other semi custom boat made in very small numbers, will be much more costly to produce than one produced with the help of very expensive and complex machinery...providing you do the number of hulls needed to amortize the investment.

Regarding the Garcia 45 can you point me to the link where you say that they are promoting a iron/lead ballast?

I never heard nothing about that and find it rather strange because steel/Iron on an aluminium boat is a material to be avoided (except where indispensable) and has always to be very well isolated due to electrical corrosion problems so a iron ballast looks plain wrong on an aluminium boat to me and as we are not talking about a cheap boat, it seems rather odd.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Polux

An aluminium hand built hull made in very small quantities like the one of the Bestaever 49, or any other semi custom boat made in very small numbers, will be much more costly to produce than one produced with the help of very expensive and complex machinery...providing you do the number of hulls needed to amortize the investment.

I have seen both the K&M (Bestevaer) and Allures aluminium production facilities. K&M are actually quite a bit larger, but this matters little.

The production methods for the aluminium hull are very near to identical in all yards and indeed even for the very few home builders. The aluminium parts are assembled by skilfully (hopefully very skilfully) welding the parts together. These days all the parts are precisely computer cut using very sophisticated equipment, but this work is typically done by the aluminium supplier from the yacht designers cutting files. The assembly of these parts cannot be automated or assigned to unskilled labour and unfortunately it takes a great deal of skill just to weld aluminium correctly especially if you want to produce a fair finish. There are therefore few cost savings for the hull build that a larger yard can take advantage of.

Originally Posted by Polux

Regarding the Garcia 45 can you point me to the link where you say that they are promoting a iron/lead ballast?

I will try to find some links to the Garcia ballast, but while I was unsure about the Allures ballast I am positive that Garcia do not use lead at least on the Garcia Salt and Exploration 45.