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Old 20-01-2007, 10:38   #31
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Well break out the scales, ya spiv!

Joking of course - hope I got the word right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey
Sorry, I haven't weighed anything.............
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Old 20-01-2007, 14:46   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnflakbait
My 33' LOA 14'6" Beam Choy/ Seaman /Kumalae Catamaran weighs 4010 pounds rigged with sails and 30 hp Tohatsu OB.

Sails 50# additional
Water 60 Gallons 480#
Fuel 25 Gallons 175#
Ground tackle 35# CQR 18# Danforth 90' 1/4" HT chain and line 170#
Extra sailing gear 25# (probably less)
Power cord 5#
Solar Panels 200 watts flexible 35#
Food Drinks 100#
Batteries (not extra) 200#
Tillerpilot 5#
Dinghy and Outboard 120#
Books 20#
Tv Dvd 5#
Clothing 50#
Safety gear 20#
Tools/ spares 40#
Cleaning supplies 5# maybe less
Misc. 200#
Us 360#


Some of these are exagerated numbers:
2045 pounds add on. I would be very concerned to add more than this on. My goal is really around 1500 pounds. It is tricky to get a small light boat like this outfitted without overloading. And yes I do believe it would increase the possibility of pitchpole dramatically if overloaded. With this load the boat EASILY sails at 15 knots in 15 knots true wind. And will do over 20 when asked politely. The boat surfs down waves then over the next one. If it was too heavy it might just slam into the next wave and stop. (Not good if you are going fast)
However this is not for everyone. The new large catamarans (often) are more like floating condos. They trade excess space for performance. To design a proper catamaran there are sacrifices that must be made. Its all comprimise. The interior of a Lagoon 420 belongs on a boat at LEAST 50' long.
Don't forget that people cross oceans in 8 foot boats (at one extreme).
It's tricky to get any light boat to carry payload.

So is this everything you would carry to cross and ocean? Or would you add instruments, SSB, addiditonal charts, additional clothing, additional fuel, additional water, additional food, additional safety gear (maybe a parachute and 600 foot of line and the required chafe gear, flares, jack lines, harnesses), extra sails, extra propane....

The thing is if you are going cruising you have to carry gear and be somewhat self sufficient. Light boats like say a Melges 32 or an Olson 40 were not designed with the intent of being anything but a light quick boat. Sure you can make jumps with them but the better choice for cruising would be a Westsail 32 or a Valient 40.

A modern cruising cat like a Lagoon 41 really should be compared to a mono like a Valiant 40. They will have about the same speed, they'll both carry about the same payload but the Lagoon will have much more room.

A light fast cat like an R33 or a Lightspeed 32 is more in line with the Melges 32 or Thompson 870. They are all quick but none of them is going to be worth a damn as a cruising boat.

We've added up our payloads, what is the best type of mono or multi to go cruising on? I think there are many good mono's for people to choose from and I think todays cruising cat is a very good platform for cruising as well. But if you want the ability to carry payload (2-3,000 lbs per person) at high speed on a cat you better break out the check book and write some big numbers to Peter Johnstone or Chris White.
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Old 20-01-2007, 15:24   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssullivan
Dave, what are your fuel / speed stats? That boat seems very efficient from the stats you just posted.
We are just working our's back from a Schionning 42ft prowler power cat with 55 hp isuzu x 2 that we followed up the coast for a while.

She was getting 1 l/nm economy at 10 knots.

we have slightly less accom, 65 hp cummins better BWL ratio and more waterline length, so are figuring on similar economy.

On passage we will probably run 1 motor for 3 hour's and then other for 3 hours for a speed of approx 8 to 10 knot's which is what the sail version got pushing a rig through the air with 35hp diesel x 2.

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Old 20-01-2007, 16:13   #34
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Yeah this is really most everything I would carry. Sure there are a few things I forgot but not much. Probably more weight of food. Perhaps a water maker and less water. I wouldn't bring much more gas than 25 glns. The 4010 displacement includes gps radio etc. Extra sails were in my list. The theory is to make a passage in shorter time and therefore provision with less. My boat's sistership "Polynesian Concept" won the Transpac (corrected) in 10 days in 1968. This was with a crew of six and all their gear. I do my best with to get everything I can as light as possible. Of course it would be much easier with a larger catamaran. I guess what my point is you must adapt to your boat. If I had a larger cat, Monohull I would carry more just because I could. Is my boat the perfect cruiser? No. Would I do any cold weather sailing with her? No. (nor would I with any boat) You can cruise fast with my boat but not with all the same junk you can carry on a westsail or something of that nature. When I was cruising the So. Pacific we met 5 guys cruising on a cal 28 from Sweden. It really puts it all in perspective. And no, I dont need SSB or a gps for that matter (but have three).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli
It's tricky to get any light boat to carry payload.

So is this everything you would carry to cross and ocean? Or would you add instruments, SSB, addiditonal charts, additional clothing, additional fuel, additional water, additional food, additional safety gear (maybe a parachute and 600 foot of line and the required chafe gear, flares, jack lines, harnesses), extra sails, extra propane....

The thing is if you are going cruising you have to carry gear and be somewhat self sufficient. Light boats like say a Melges 32 or an Olson 40 were not designed with the intent of being anything but a light quick boat. Sure you can make jumps with them but the better choice for cruising would be a Westsail 32 or a Valient 40.

A modern cruising cat like a Lagoon 41 really should be compared to a mono like a Valiant 40. They will have about the same speed, they'll both carry about the same payload but the Lagoon will have much more room.

A light fast cat like an R33 or a Lightspeed 32 is more in line with the Melges 32 or Thompson 870. They are all quick but none of them is going to be worth a damn as a cruising boat.

We've added up our payloads, what is the best type of mono or multi to go cruising on? I think there are many good mono's for people to choose from and I think todays cruising cat is a very good platform for cruising as well. But if you want the ability to carry payload (2-3,000 lbs per person) at high speed on a cat you better break out the check book and write some big numbers to Peter Johnstone or Chris White.
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Old 20-01-2007, 20:37   #35
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Tnflak.... you couls save a bit more if you got a lighter dinghy and a pair of oars
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Old 20-01-2007, 23:08   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli
It's tricky to get any light boat to carry payload.

It is difficult,I agree, but not impossible. Nothing that a truck load of $$$ won't fix.

Easier if not building for survey[charter] as I demonstrated in the other post, easiest if adding waterline length, but no additional accomadation, or niceties eg: 4 toilet's /shower's

We've added up our payloads, what is the best type of mono or multi to go cruising on? I think there are many good mono's for people to choose from and I think todays cruising cat is a very good platform for cruising as well. But if you want the ability to carry payload (2-3,000 lbs per person) at high speed on a cat you better break out the check book and write some big numbers to Peter Johnstone or Chris White.

You are right I believe Joli.


While some cat's will carry the load in the under 50ft catagory, their light air performance, pointing ability, ability to make an attempt at avoiding bad weather will dimminish.


Load's to Rig, sails and structure will increase considerably if trying to maintain a high average speed.


My opinion.

Dave
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Old 23-01-2007, 18:45   #37
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Originally Posted by ssullivan
Wow... so what boat do you have? She's got to be pretty good sized, right?
And Joli: What kind of boat do you have? My boat and JonD's boat seem to be quite similar.
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And I'll ask as well, What size boat have you got Joli, that needs all the weight of gear that you had in the list ?

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Old 23-01-2007, 18:59   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli
A light fast cat like an R33 or a Lightspeed 32 is more in line with the Melges 32 or Thompson 870. They are all quick but none of them is going to be worth a damn as a cruising boat.

.


while the R33 is not and never will be a cruising cat, a Schionning for example is a great example of a capable lightweight cruising cat, If taking a more sensible approach to fitout and load carrying need's.

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Old 25-01-2007, 03:52   #39
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”There’s always some expert talking about tools in the boating magazines. I’m glad because, when I’m caught out in the islands without the right tool, I have to get on the VHF and try to borrow it from somebody else. Admitting to all the world that I don’t have the right tool is as bad as putting an ad in the paper asking somebody to tell me how to make babies. So I’m grateful for all the advice, but I keep wondering why they never talk about some of the more important tools that I keep in my tool pool.

One of the more important is my ...”


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Old 25-01-2007, 05:31   #40
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Dave, I'm a big fan of your design concept. It's a powerboat that fits right in with us sailors. Seems like a very intelligent design. Efficiency is cool!
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Old 25-01-2007, 05:46   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat man do
And Joli: What kind of boat do you have? My boat and JonD's boat seem to be quite similar.
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Two questions by Sean unanswered

And I'll ask as well, What size boat have you got Joli, that needs all the weight of gear that you had in the list ?

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Dave,

I sent Sean a message and answered his questions, I'll do the same here.

Joli is an old Bruckman built C&C. Sisterships are Robon, Sorcery, Grampus, Koohinoor, Brassy, Barbaras Song, Ketch. They are all custom boats that are 30 to 40 years old. Grampus is the last one racing, she won the Giraglia 4 or 5 years ago against the maxi's, Swans, Wally's and Volvo 60's. We make an occasional casual race with Joli but after 60k miles of racing I've had enough and the kids are racing now so I'm shore support. Photos have been posted here for some time. Joli is very quick and very comfortable but because of its size manuevers need to be thought out well in advance.

Dave, if you race you know that racing trim and cruising trim are vastly different. When someone says a boat won such and such a race so it must be fast I don't buy that it will be as fast when cruising or if the factory makes a quick transport I disount that also, the boat is light. Cruising boats carry gear, they carry a whole lot more fuel, water, food,,, and the way you sail the boat is very different. Cruisers back off big time. Read the sail configurations that well know and respected sailors like Beth Leanord, Evan Starzinger on Hawk sail with Welcome to Beth Leonard & Evans Starzinger's home page. Very different then racing configurations. Sailing upwind at 10~11 knots is no fun. You have 25 or so over the deck and the motion is not good. Life aboard is easier when you back off to 8 or so. Reaching and running speeds can be higher, the motion is better. Read how Morgans Cloud is sailed, they won't sail upwind in 25, they park the boat and wait.

Cruising Canada



Launch, ready to set the spar.



Here's a clip. Short sail home doing maybe 10~11 with 15 or so knots of breeze, close reaching, just Polly and I, no waves (2-3 foot), easy sail.



Bryan
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