How much boat is too much?

[Sandero]

Many move up in size. This implies that they want to get to a size that they can't do immediately. Why? Cost? Experience?

I would propose that if you really intend to do ABC type of sailing... That is your goal. Don't trade up over time... it's an expensive way to get there and could be a waste of time.

Get the size and type of boat you want and stripped down if you can find one.. and as you trick it out for the purpose you want you learn that boat.

For example... if you're going to end up with a 40'+ cruiser.. get one perhaps used and then spend the 25- 50K doing everything right ONCE over a few years.

But you DO have to commit to your vision and your initial research on vessel size and type at the get go.

What do you think of this approach?

jef
sv shiva

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by defjef

Many move up in size. This implies that they want to get to a size that they can't do immediately. Why? Cost? Experience?

I would propose that if you really intend to do ABC type of sailing... That is your goal. Don't trade up over time... it's an expensive way to get there and could be a waste of time.

Get the size and type of boat you want and stripped down if you can find one.. and as you trick it out for the purpose you want you learn that boat.

For example... if you're going to end up with a 40'+ cruiser.. get one perhaps used and then spend the 25- 50K doing everything right ONCE over a few years.

But you DO have to commit to your vision and your initial research on vessel size and type at the get go.

What do you think of this approach?

jef
sv shiva

I think that approach is great for some people. However there is a large community that wants to go now, not in two years and 50k worth of boat work later.

There are lot's of ways to do it.

New - After waiting for the boat, you spend a little time "customizing." Everything is new and "should" be more reliable.

Off Cruise - Someone is cruising and sells the boat lock stock and barrel - You can find the gem that is well maintained and start cruising next week.

Project Boat - You buy cheap and customize the way you want. For me the risk is that you are forever tweaking and the boat is never perfect and you lose sight of going.

There are a million permutations.

However I think that the upgrade in increments can work. You may not be able to afford the "dream" boat today. Buy what you can afford to pay in cash and maintain comfortably - Our 27 foot boat is perfect.

I am still saving at a good clip - I eventually probably want a 38-42 foot cat. But I am not ready to commit +$250k. But I do want more capability. I am now looking in the 36-40 foot mono range $80-120k for that next level of capability, complexity and comfort.

To each his own...

[TaoJones]

Since the originator of this thread asked "How Much Boat Is Too Much?," and since he's also from the San Francisco Bay Area, I thought I'd add the following from today's 'Lectronic Latitude:

~ ~ ~

"One of the Biggest Sailboat Sales Ever

"October 5, 2007 – Richmond

"The folks at KKMI in Richmond are understandably proud to announce they have have sold Adele, the spectacular 180-ft Hoek ketch, to Northern California owners. The new owners wish to remain anonymous, but we do know they started out with an Express 37 and then moved up to the Swan 112 Song of The Sea.

Photo Courtesy Adele
© 2007 Latitude 38 Publishing Co., Inc.

"Ken Keefe, who is a partner at KKMI with Paul Kaplan, is the one who sold the boat, and who will be managing the boat. For those not familiar with megayachts, you just don't buy one and take off. . ."

~ ~ ~

For the rest of the story, go to:

Latitude 38 - Northern California's Premier Sailing and Marine Magazine

TaoJones

[David M]

I have been aboard as a mate and sometimes a skipper on quite a number of commercial work vessels and other types of recreational vessels, just for fun. So it's not like I am thinking of going up to a size level that I am unfamiliar with. A large cruising cat is going to be smaller than the commercial boats I have worked aboard. I am concerned because I am considering a design that I am unfamiliar with, a cruising catamaran. I will also have a minimal crew level, just my wife and I. There will be times where I bring aboard friends who can help with the sails and the line handling etc, but there will also be times where it is just my wife and I. Basically, I am trying to avoid getting in over my head crew wise. Getting familiar with a catamaran will be a matter of time at the helm and perhaps hiring an expert for whatever length of time it takes to become familiar with the vessels handling characteristics.

I lean towards one of Ex-Calif permutations of ownership, and that is buying new or near new and spending the money to customize the boat to ones likings, mostly electronics and backups for backups and spare parts. Stuff breaks...it's a boat. I dread the thought of a project boat. Trading up seems like it would be a waste. To me it makes sense to purchase the boat one ultimately wants so one can focus ones time and money on that boat alone.

I like your name Ex-Calif. I hope to be same ASAP. The stories we could tell about the state of this State.

I have a pretty decent sized budget for a boat. So I have no interest in spending months doing the work myself although I probably could do much of the work myself. I just dislike doing boatyard work and would rather leave it to the professionals even though it is going to cost more for the labor.

BTW, KKMI is my favorite boatyard!...what a great bunch of people they have working there. Not cheap...but good. You get what you pay for.

Latitude 38 of course is the best sailing magazine ever...they say it how it is. There is nothing pretentious about this magazine. It's not just local news. Most of what they print is relevant to sailors everywhere. They went color a couple years ago but at least they have not gone glossy!

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by David M

I am concerned because I am considering a design that I am unfamiliar with, a cruising catamaran. I will also have a minimal crew level, just my wife and I. There will be times where I bring aboard friends who can help with the sails and the line handling etc, but there will also be times where it is just my wife and I.

That's why a lot of folks are sugegsting the low 40's for length. Automation can help but what happens when the automation goes down?

Be careful not to get something that stays at teh dock too much like my friends because going out is too much of a hassle...

Originally Posted by David M

I like your name Ex-Calif. I hope to be same ASAP. The stories we could tell about the state of this State.

Boy - that topic could be major thread drift - LOL.

I grew up in the inland empire in the 60's and 70's. Orange groves and dairy farms then. Cardboard houses now <sigh>

[fastcat435]

The reason for designing and building the FastCat 435

7 years ago I started looking to find the perfect Catamaran with the following
wish list.
Very comfortable for 4 people to live on for long periods.
2 king sized beds and standing height true out.
Good performance and pointing capability
Clean uncluttered deck for safety.
360 degrees visibility inside the saloon and in the cockpit
A good payload for long trips
Possible to sail single handed.
I came to the conclusions that present Catamarans where very comfortable and
good to live on but they where in now way fast.
Some are very fast but no comfort or loading capability at all.
Therefore I decided to develop and built my vision of what the future catamaran
should be like.
I noticed that almost all Cats where to heavy and therefore needed a waterline
length to width of 1:8 or 1:9 and because of this could never point well or make
good speeds.
By decreasing the weight I thought it should be possible to make the waterline
length to width ratio 1:12,5 and that is what I did .
I was able to decrease the weight with more then 40 % compared with present
day Catamarans by using the most modern techniques available and by carefully
watching the weight of everything installed on the boat.
The FastCat 435 is built with the new Vector-K technique:
That is short for Epoxy resin infusion with Kevlar / glass / carbon and Divinycell
foam without gellcoat but spray painted in Awl grip 2 component paint.
The result of that is an extremely light laminate (5, 1 kilo per m2) compared with
13 kilo’s for a normal hand laminated boat
The total weight of the prototype came out below 8 tons in the water or more
then 5 tons lighter then any comparable production catamaran in the same size.
I sailed the prototype 19000 NM over the last year to see where we could
improve on the design, ergonomics, weight, beauty, practicality etc. and
averaged over 10 knots on the trip from Durban South Africa via Miami and
the Azores to Amsterdam.
Because of this trip we where able to improve the first production 435 and have
decreased the total weight with 2 tons to
5987 kilo’s in the water ready to sail and have improved the cat in many other
ways as well.
Therefore she also has a payload of 5000 kg plus a full tank of water (500 L) and
diesel (500 L) according to CE A requirements.
We now have a Catamaran that point’s up to 35 degrees apparent while
maintaining good speed while we have reached top speeds of well over 20 knots

in flat water on reaches.

[David M]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

The reason for designing and building the FastCat 435

7 years ago I started looking to find the perfect Catamaran with the following
wish list.
Very comfortable for 4 people to live on for long periods.
2 king sized beds and standing height true out.
Good performance and pointing capability
Clean uncluttered deck for safety.
360 degrees visibility inside the saloon and in the cockpit
A good payload for long trips
Possible to sail single handed.
I came to the conclusions that present Catamarans where very comfortable and
good to live on but they where in now way fast.
Some are very fast but no comfort or loading capability at all.
Therefore I decided to develop and built my vision of what the future catamaran
should be like.
I noticed that almost all Cats where to heavy and therefore needed a waterline
length to width of 1:8 or 1:9 and because of this could never point well or make
good speeds.
By decreasing the weight I thought it should be possible to make the waterline
length to width ratio 1:12,5 and that is what I did .
I was able to decrease the weight with more then 40 % compared with present
day Catamarans by using the most modern techniques available and by carefully
watching the weight of everything installed on the boat.
The FastCat 435 is built with the new Vector-K technique:
That is short for Epoxy resin infusion with Kevlar / glass / carbon and Divinycell
foam without gellcoat but spray painted in Awl grip 2 component paint.
The result of that is an extremely light laminate (5, 1 kilo per m2) compared with
13 kilo’s for a normal hand laminated boat
The total weight of the prototype came out below 8 tons in the water or more
then 5 tons lighter then any comparable production catamaran in the same size.
I sailed the prototype 19000 NM over the last year to see where we could
improve on the design, ergonomics, weight, beauty, practicality etc. and
averaged over 10 knots on the trip from Durban South Africa via Miami and
the Azores to Amsterdam.
Because of this trip we where able to improve the first production 435 and have
decreased the total weight with 2 tons to
5987 kilo’s in the water ready to sail and have improved the cat in many other
ways as well.
Therefore she also has a payload of 5000 kg plus a full tank of water (500 L) and
diesel (500 L) according to CE A requirements.
We now have a Catamaran that point’s up to 35 degrees apparent while
maintaining good speed while we have reached top speeds of well over 20 knots

in flat water on reaches.

I like your ideas overall. I like to go fast too and am willing to sacrifice a little comfort to do so.

I especially like your idea of not using gelcoat but instead using Awlgrip. How many times have I seen boats hulls being sprayed in boatyards with Awlgrip because the gelcoat looks like hell after ten years? Taking a soft bristle brush to Awlgrip makes it look brand new. Gelcoat takes a power buffer and a lot of time to maybe make it look almost new. Gelcoat is such a horrible material in the way that it oxidizes, collects dirt and stains into the micro-pores, is difficult to repair, blisters and absorbs water. I don't understand why more manufacturers don't produce a boat with an LPU finish from the factory to begin with?

I found your website: African Cats: comfortable lightweight performance leisure catamarans

I'm curious, what does a chine on a catamaran do? On the surface it seems you are just adding more surface area per amount of volume. (bad). Is it for reducing spray? What is the advantage to doing this? Won't the leeward hull be submerged down to the chine at times? Catana's have the same.

Do you have flush deck hatches? They seem like such a tripping hazard when they extend a few inches above deck. I realize they would require some sort of scupper around the perimeter.

Are your mast, boom, dagger boards and other structural spars made of carbon fiber?

Is there adequate volume in the hulls forward and aft to minimize hobby horsing?

Are you using a balsa core?

I'm adding it to my list of boats to consider. I like the 52'. Do you have any boats in the states? Do you have pictures of boats that have been produced?

-David

[David M]

...my 30 minutes ran out.

I see a sail area/displacement ratio of .0997. Most other cats are around 0.05. Is this safe with respect to capsizing?

David

[fastcat435]

Hallo David to start with your last question yes we have a bigger sail area than most cruising cats. That means that reefing will start sooner , 80 % of your sailing time will be in light winds so you will have a speed advantage ( 10 knots of 90 degree wind results in 9 knots of speed ) we start decrease sail at 25 knots app. wind see data below

STABILITY DATA

For the boat: African Seawing
Prepared by: Gideon Goudsmit
Date: 30-08-2007
Method used; sailing trials
Minimum operating mass = 7785 Kg =
Loaded displacement mass = 13205 Kg =

Sail set


Maximum Beaufort force advised for each sail combination


Minimum operating condition


Loaded displacement


condition opt.)

Main sail + light weather jib
18 knots force 4
11 tons
Main sail + working genua
23 knots force 5
11 tons
Main sail + working jib
26 knots force 5
11 tons
First reef in main sail + small jib
28 knots force 6
11 tons
Second reef in main sail + storm jib
31 knots force 7
11 tons
Small jib
45 knots force 8
11 tons
Storm jib
55 knots force 10
11 tons


NB: the above list of sail combinations may be varied as appropriate to the rig of the boat. The following notes may be varied at the discretion of the builder.

NOTE 1 If excessive sail is carried, THIS BOAT MAY CAPSISE, but is designed not to sink if this occurs.
NOTE 2 The wind strengths tabulated above include a margin for the effect of gusts.
In violent winds or confused or breaking seas, additional caution should be exercised.
NOTE 3 In the event of a severe gust, FREE SHEETS.
If wind is close-hauled, LUFF UP.
If wind is abeam, FREE the SHEETS.
If wind is abaft the beam, BEAR AWAY
NOTE 4 Special care should be taken when turning from a following wind onto a beam reach, because both the apparent speed and heeling effect will increase. Such turns should not be made rapidly, and consideration should be given toa reduction in sail before such a maneuver.

Yes the advantages of a 2 K paint are huge . a weight saving alone of 1100 LBS plus the nicer look and ease of repair.
The advantage of a chine is more volume inside and more lifting force to decrease digging in .
In the rear of the 435 you will find 2 california king size beds because of the chine.
The hatches are 1 inch above the deck , low enough not to trip over.
The mast and boom are aluminum but optionally can be made in carbon.
We use divinycell core thru out the whole boat all with resin infused epoxy. the complete boat is insulated to stay cool in summer and warm in winter .
The keels and rudders or daggerboards are made from carbon and so is the roof structure and all parts where additional strenght is wanted.
All the FastCats at this moment are cruising , a 525 is in the carib and a 435 in the cape verdi islands
Greetings

[philip van praag]

Originally Posted by David M

I have been aboard as a mate and sometimes a skipper on quite a number of commercial work vessels and other types of recreational vessels, just for fun. So it's not like I am thinking of going up to a size level that I am unfamiliar with. A large cruising cat is going to be smaller than the commercial boats I have worked aboard. I am concerned because I am considering a design that I am unfamiliar with, a cruising catamaran. I will also have a minimal crew level, just my wife and I. There will be times where I bring aboard friends who can help with the sails and the line handling etc, but there will also be times where it is just my wife and I. Basically, I am trying to avoid getting in over my head crew wise. Getting familiar with a catamaran will be a matter of time at the helm and perhaps hiring an expert for whatever length of time it takes to become familiar with the vessels handling characteristics.

I lean towards one of Ex-Calif permutations of ownership, and that is buying new or near new and spending the money to customize the boat to ones likings, mostly electronics and backups for backups and spare parts. Stuff breaks...it's a boat. I dread the thought of a project boat. Trading up seems like it would be a waste. To me it makes sense to purchase the boat one ultimately wants so one can focus ones time and money on that boat alone.

I like your name Ex-Calif. I hope to be same ASAP. The stories we could tell about the state of this State.

I have a pretty decent sized budget for a boat. So I have no interest in spending months doing the work myself although I probably could do much of the work myself. I just dislike doing boatyard work and would rather leave it to the professionals even though it is going to cost more for the labor.

BTW, KKMI is my favorite boatyard!...what a great bunch of people they have working there. Not cheap...but good. You get what you pay for.

Latitude 38 of course is the best sailing magazine ever...they say it how it is. There is nothing pretentious about this magazine. It's not just local news. Most of what they print is relevant to sailors everywhere. They went color a couple years ago but at least they have not gone glossy!

you have a great CV and it would seem a pot of money to buy and run a boat that most of us can only dreem of.

but two questions that come to mind.
1: all the large boats you have worked on how many had a crew of two.

2: is your wife's CV as good as yours how will she manage when she is on watch on her own, or you are ill.

we settled for under 40ft or as close as we could get as this was what we conciderd the largest boat the weekest member of crew could handle.
you should make shure your wife is happy to handle the boat.
we also want time to enjoy our retiament it takes me 4 hours to wash the topside down, and thats only on a 37ft you can pay people to do the repairs in port but as you know there plenty to do just to keep the boat running day to day. when you charter to get an idear i suggest you bare boat and keep the boat clean and tidy as you wuold if it was yours.
let us know how you get on!!

[fastcat435]

It is not just size that matters , get a boat that is designed from the outset as a single hander , even is you are with 2 or more most often the sailing will be done by you.A good single handling boat has all control lines running back to the cockpit, has single line reefing , has an electric winch to help raise the sails or set a reef,has anchor winch control from the steeringand has excellent visibility from inside and the cockpit , and is designed with minimal maintenance because working ( repairing ) and sailing are very hard to combine.

[Charlie]

HI John M:

We just sold/donated our yellow J105 to Cal Maritime and some of my friends graduated from CMA. I waas just going to a soccer game with one of them(he's a captain on APL) and we spent a couple of hours swapping stories. It seems like there are alot of similarities between Ships and boats. The one thing that I noticed constantly coming up was breakdowns. As Captain he would ask the Cheif Engineer to fix something. In my stories it was always "I broke out the wrenches and . . . " Your idea of going new sounds smart to me its the maintenance that I see as a problem. perhaps you can afford to have someone else do all the work but you still have to find that someone who is willing and able to do the work ot your standard. In some places you might not be able to find that person. In talking to a friend of mine and his wife who did a circumnavigation on a 15 year old boat he didn't get to see as much of the world as his wife did b/c he had his head in the bilge or engine compartment. Bigger boat means more systems, more mainteance, and more $$$$. I ended up buying a 41' 21500 disp boat and there is alot of work to do on it just in maintenance.

One of the requirements for the purchase of the boat was that my wife could move the largest sail by herself (if she had to). The 41' boat is pushing the limit but I do have two strong kids (9 & 11) that can help so I stretched it out a little.

Good luck with your choice.

[Whimsical]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

Therefore she also has a payload of 5000 kg plus a full tank of water (500 L) and

diesel (500 L) according to CE A requirements.

A payload of nearly 6 ton with a L/B ratio of 12.5:1.
What is the rate of immersion?
My hulls are 12:1 and have a rate of 175 kg/cm. With 6 ton it would sink 350 mm, quite a lot.

Mike

[fastcat435]

Our immersion rate is 1 cm for 350 kilo for the first 3500 and than because of the widening of the hulls it moves up to 500 kilo per cm when loaded up she immerses 13 cm and that leaves a bridgedeck clearance of 78 cm in the forward part and 128 in the rear under the cockpit

[Whimsical]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

Our immersion rate is 1 cm for 350 kilo for the first 3500 and than because of the widening of the hulls it moves up to 500 kilo per cm when loaded up she immerses 13 cm and that leaves a bridgedeck clearance of 78 cm in the forward part and 128 in the rear under the cockpit

Unless the specific gravity of seawater or the fundamentals of geometry have changed since I last looked that is not possible.
A pair of rectangular boxes @ 13 meters with a B/L ratio of 12.5 has an immersion rate of 270kg/cm. Assuming the fastcat has a pointy front end and a somewhat tapered rear end the prismatic coefficient of the waterline plane is probably somewhere in the region of .75. This would dictate an immersion rate of about 200kg/cm. To achieve 350kg/cm the B/L ratio would need to be about 7.25:1
Any 13 meter cat with 12.5:1 hulls could be loaded to 12 ton but I would think anybody expecting it to perform at this weight will be sadly dissapointed.

Mike