How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Not saying that...just that a sailor (which I have been for a great number of years) should realize that sailing in tight spots may show what a total "a**" he or she is if they decide that everyone else should suffer due to their whim or ego..

And before you even go there...I was one too for awhile...and have lived long enough and now wise enough to see that kind of personaly right here in CF and elsewhere.

Oh please -- you SUFFERED because you had to back off the throttle for ten seconds? Such pain!!!

[markpierce]

As far as I'm concerned, these fellows have the right-of-way and aren't expected to adjust speed to reduce their wakes.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Oh please -- you SUFFERED because you had to back off the throttle for ten seconds? Such pain!!!

See!!! It didn't take long to find one...

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Actually, sailboats under such circumstances don't have nearly as much choice as you think about when to tack. Out on the open ocean you have choices. Inside a channel, not so much. I just don't understand why you can't grasp this. Taking is not "cutting off another vessel."

Yes, the courteous/wise motorboater needs to anticipate movements of sailboats due to the nature of their power source. That's easier for us former "rag" sailors.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Yes, the courteous/wise motorboater needs to anticipate movements of sailboats due to the nature of their power source. That's easier for us former "rag" sailors.

Sure, it's easier, but it's not rocket science. I really think the person complaining about this could figure it out if he wanted to.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Oh please -- you SUFFERED because you had to back off the throttle for ten seconds? Such pain!!!

That sounds like half the fishermen in our canal system.
Somebody trying to dock their boat practically gets trampled by traffic which can't be bothered by anyone not doing less than five knots when the whole canal system has a NO WAKE speed limit.

(But Steve, tell us what you REALLY think!)
I Live near the entrance, so I see a lot of boat traffic in the summer.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by markpierce

As far as I'm concerned, these fellows have the right-of-way and aren't expected to adjust speed to reduce their wakes.

Actually in our channel they are speed limited. There is also a traffic monitoring station run by the authorities.

In regards to rights of way in a channel. It appears that the most "simple" of regs gets subject to interpretation.

Am I in a channel? Maybe sometimes it is not clear but if there are poles on my left and right with green and red lights on them, especially leading into a marina, I am gonna call that a channel - Sausolito.

If there is a breakwater and a big pile of rocks on my left and a big pile of rocks on my right leading to a marina, Im gonna call that a channel - MDR

If there are poles on my left and poles on my right with with red and green lights on them leading up to a bridge span and beyond I am gonna call that a channel - SFO centrtal bay leading north.

If the chart says Pelican Channel. I am gonna call that a channel

If there is a 3 mile long island 1/2 mile across from the shore and 300+ meter ships pass this watereway, Im gonna call this a channel.

If you want a definition of "narrow" you aint gonna get it because narrow is relative.

Sausolito - everyone except the shallowest draft has to use the channel. If you decide to sail up or down this channel, I interpret the reg to mean you do not impede anyone. You do have a choice not to enter this channel under sail. Everyone else has to use the channel to get to and from home.

MDR - an exception becuase it has a sailing zone but I have sailed "beyond" the sailing zones with no traffic with the explicit understanding that I have no rights and would be an idiot and rude to impede a power boat.

SFO - An interesting one because there is plenty of navigable water outside this channel for any pleasure boat and most ferries and work boats. So common sense asks, "Why is there a channel?" - of course it is for ships to navigate under the bridge and up to benicia area. Logic tells me I can expect vessels Constrained by Draught to use the channel. In this case I would expect no rights over ships but becuase there is navigable water all around I would expect rights from ferries and other work boats not restricted in maneuver even if we were all in the channel..

The bad news is we can all interpret this as we wish. The apportionment of blame happens in court after the fibreglass is broken. However, here on this forum, as on the water, I would give way rather than try to convince someone who is unconvinceable.

Finally I would love someone to show me where vessels towing have special rights unless they are declaring RAM.

[markpierce]

Even sailboats are to give way to motorboats engaged in fishing (restricted in their maneuverability) such as this:

[oldjags]

Originally Posted by markpierce

Yes, the courteous/wise motorboater needs to anticipate movements of sailboats due to the nature of their power source. That's easier for us former "rag" sailors.

Isn't the obligation of the stand on vessel to maintain course and speed while being overtaken? How does this requirement affect a sailboat tacking in front of an overtaking powerboat? I would think that the sailboat being overtaken would be obligated NOT to tack in front of the powerboat, even thought he has 'right of way'. If that means you luff up until he's passed, or communicate your intention to tack so he can pass on the other side, I think thats what you are required to do.

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by oldjags

Isn't the obligation of the stand on vessel to maintain course and speed while being overtaken? How does this requirement affect a sailboat tacking in front of an overtaking powerboat? I would think that the sailboat being overtaken would be obligated NOT to tack in front of the powerboat, even thought he has 'right of way'. If that means you luff up until he's passed, or communicate your intention to tack so he can pass on the other side, I think thats what you are required to do.

If the sailboat is already on a tack they maintain course, as far as is safe of course. The motor craft should pass to the stern. If the sailboat is already tacking when the motor vessel approaches the same thing applies.

To be on a tack and tacking aren't the same thing and it's important to be clear about that. If a sailing vessel is on a tack and a motor vessel is passing by her stern the sailor needs to assess whether tacking at that time while interfere with the motor vessel. It is a judgement call and the operator or the motor vessel should make an effort to pass in a manner that doesn't creat a situation where it's a problem, where possible.

Under most conditions it's not going to happen really quickly and the operator of the MV should be able to chart a course that isn't going to greatly inconvenience them when they see someone begin the maneuver. The operator of the SV should be able to plan tacking at a time when it's also not going to cause problems.

[Teeto]

I agree with the previous post.
As a sailor I also feel for the power boat trying to dodge the drink/ appy sailboat. He stated quite clearly they were going downwind, a comfortable point of sail for crew to have such convivialities.
So - tacking downwind- they basically chose to slowly zigzag in front of other vessels gybing I assume as they went. They could easily have dropped the main and sailed a straight course on headsail alone.
Basically lazy sailors causing annoyance and not deserving of such earnest defence.

[Ex-Calif]

- The rule that everyone should avoid hitting everyone else is given
- It is unclear in the following quotes whether we are still talking boats in channels. My responses assume were are not and no one is RAM or constrained.

A couple of comments...

Originally Posted by markpierce

Yes, the courteous/wise motorboater needs to anticipate movements of sailboats due to the nature of their power source. That's easier for us former "rag" sailors.

- This wise powerboater should anticipate the movements of sailboats but is not obligated to do so in a passing situation
- The sailboat being passed is obligated to hold course and speed and the powerboater has a right to expect that
- Sailboater should plan his tack so he is not changing course while being passed. If he finds himself pinned he may choose to hail the powerboater for room or luff up until passed
- Bad planning on the sailors part should not result in an "emergency" for the passing boat

I am not banging sailboaters but remember most all of us are powerboaters when our sails are down so it is important to understand each obligation even if that is not how it usually works out in reality.

Originally Posted by hummingway

If the sailboat is already on a tack they maintain course, as far as is safe of course. The motor craft should pass to the stern. If the sailboat is already tacking when the motor vessel approaches the same thing applies.

Agree.

However most courses, bays and channels are not in a straight line. It is not unusual for everyone to be "turning the corner" at the same place to go home.

A sailor is tempted to reach an inside corner, find 3 powerboats passing him and say, "Why don't all these jerks go out a ways and give me more room?"

Simple - We all know the shortest distance is a straight line home.
- The courteous motor boater passes to stern but is not obligated to do so. He is obligated to pass safely as not to interfere with the boat holding course.

Originally Posted by hummingway

Under most conditions it's not going to happen really quickly and the operator of the MV should be able to chart a course that isn't going to greatly inconvenience them when they see someone begin the maneuver. The operator of the SV should be able to plan tacking at a time when it's also not going to cause problems.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Teeto

So - tacking downwind- they basically chose to slowly zigzag in front of other vessels gybing I assume as they went. They could easily have dropped the main and sailed a straight course on headsail alone.
Basically lazy sailors causing annoyance and not deserving of such earnest defence.

If this is in fact what was going on then best to say, "bad form old chap."

However there is nothing to preclude the sailor from lackadaisically sailing downwind with inpredictable gybing.

- Until a passing situation arises. Just when that happens can be a debate but when it does the sailor is obligated to hold course and speed.
- The prudent powerboater if he cannot determine if the sailboater has recognized a passing situation exists and thinks a collision situation could exist "shall assume one does exist" and should offer two long and one short blast or 2 long and two short as appropriate.
- If he gets no L-S-L-S reply he should assume the sailboat is clueless and has no idea what those signals mean and act accordingly to avoid.

In that case were I a non-courteous and mean spirited power boater I might accelerate to full displacement speed so as to make those idjits spill their martinis.

"However there is nothing to preclude the sailor from lackadaisically sailing downwind with inpredictable gybing."

Except in a channel.

The regs aren't written to cover every situation but IMO this is a reason that they decided to write a special rule for channels and specified sailboats in 9(b)

In the example above the sailboat is specificaly burdened to stay out of the way when sailing in a channel if the other vessel can only navigate in that channel.

I know the sailboaters don't want to hear it but you do have a choice to not sail in that channel or not enter that channel.

Take a look at the north part of SFO bay. I was amazed that there are channels leading from marinas that are a mile or more long. Both the power boater and sailor must use these channels. To sail in these channels would be extremely difficult if not just dumb.

When looking at the regs it is easy to sort of get local blinders on. However entering a new port with a 2 mile channel that is 300 meters wide is a dumb place to assert your sailing rights or to assume because you are a sailboat with "specific" maneuvering issues that everyone else should "get the hell outta my way"


Semi interesting side note about towing -

This weekend we were sailing. Great wind 5+ knots boat speed and we saw a big grey ship (70meters?) on a diagonal course up the channel that looked like it would cross us. Normally ships go straight up and down the channel and I always endeavor to give way to any work boat as they are in it for money.

However as we prepared to take evasive action he made a noticeable turn to port. He held course for 30 seconds or so and then turned back to starboard. He clearly maneuvered to give us room as we were the only boat about.

As he approached closer and passed astern he was better identified as a really fancy barge, where the pusher "plugged" into a recess at the back. It was clearly a tow, clearly not constrained or RAM and clearly gave this sailing vessel room.

We talked about it quite a bit as it is such a rarity around here. Hats off to that guy.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Teeto

I agree with the previous post.
As a sailor I also feel for the power boat trying to dodge the drink/ appy sailboat. He stated quite clearly they were going downwind, a comfortable point of sail for crew to have such convivialities.
So - tacking downwind- they basically chose to slowly zigzag in front of other vessels gybing I assume as they went. They could easily have dropped the main and sailed a straight course on headsail alone.
Basically lazy sailors causing annoyance and not deserving of such earnest defence.

Here here

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

-

... offer two long and one short blast or 2 long and two short as appropriate. ...

Agree with all you just said Ex-Calif, but want you to know I've been scolded for using the term "long" when the correct term is "prolonged."

[Bash]

Originally Posted by KestrelBuck

Although I know the rules of the road, it is my policy to give way to any and all boats that are bigger and faster, lest they cause me irreparable harm.

As someone who owns a bigger, faster boat than yours, I'd like to dissuade you from pursuing the above-stated policy, which is actually contrary to the rules of the road.

If I'm on port and you're on starboard, please hold your course and speed so that I can change course appropriately. If I'm trying to duck your stern while you're trying to duck mine, we could end up exchanging anchors.

There are two easy steps here: (1) learn the rules; (2) follow the rules. The system doesn't really work if you've only take the first step.