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Old 01-12-2011, 05:40   #106
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
Because you can't read and think your vessel is restricted to a narrow channel? Sorry, I'm guessing neither your beam, draft or maneuverability qualifies you.
I'm not quite sure why you don't think rule 9 applies to small power vessels?

If the channel is the only place where a vessel can safely operate then why wouldn't rule 9 apply if that person is in the channel and following it?

I agreeit get's a little weird applying rules of the road to small vessels...but the rules areexpected to be followed big or small...and just because some of our vessel operate in a much smaller scale environment...but like a lot of "so called experts" like to point out on this board...it the rule fits...you gotta wear it...

There IS/SEEMS TO BE a lot of room for interpretation swometimes....like what is the definition of "narrow channel"??? I have been looking for one for over 10 years now in all kinds of literature and web searches. If there is none...then why would Mark's statement be so apparantly incorrect?
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:43   #107
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Better reread the rules or be more specific.

A tug and barge are just another power boat unless they declare RAM.
There are some situations like rule 9 where sailboats aren't automatically the stand on vessel.
And being responsible for your wake is really only an act of seamanship...not being able to take a reasonable wake is poor seamanship too and equally arguable in a hearing/pissing match.

Do I think many powerboaters are clueless??? Sure do...probably just as many as the clueless sailors out there...
No, a tug and barge are NOT "just another power boat. I have read the regs. Being fairly new to sailing it's not that long ago that I took the Coast Guard's classes (as well as a number of other ones).

Boats towing ANYTHING have the right of way. If you're giving me a tow, we have the right of way over any other pleasure craft.

Commercial boats dragging nets always have the right of way (and need a much wider berth than many realize). Tugs towing barges ALWAYS have the right of way. It's about maneuverability. Very often they *cannot* do anything but what they are doing. If a sailboat or recreational boat gets anywhere near them, it's up to themselves to keep themselves safe.

I said nothing about a "reasonable" wake. I said you are responsible for the DAMAGE your wake does. Someone here joked about some boats "deserving" tsunamais from power boats. It is THAT "poor seaman" (to use your phrase) who is responsible for damages caused by his or her wake. Twisting what I said will not work, because I am not making it up as I go along.

If my boat responds sensitively to wakes (as my sailboat tends to do if not under sail) it IS my responsibility to turn into the wake. It IS my responsibility to secure the contents of my cabin when sailing. But if I'm at anchor, cooking dinner, and a power boat deliberately comes through the area of anchorage, circles my boat and wakes it, and smashes my dishes, well I know someone in this area who now has his video camera at the ready.

That really HAS happened to someone I know, and that story at least lines up with the laws of physics.
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:48   #108
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Yeah, it's a really big deal. Push the tiller, release the sheet, take in the other sheet. Must have done it a thousand times, often by myself. And I'm not talking dinghies.

So tell me how someone does that while drinking "cocktails" (now it turns out the poster doesn't know what they were drinking" and "eating appys."

And if one or two people were eating, how does that change the fact that you have to turn the tiller, handle the sheets and, sometimes, tail, to do it? How would you do that "leisurely" in a narrow channel, without moving around? How would one be eating and drinking the entire time?

Let me put it differently. On MY boat I would not be tacking through a channel without using crew to help me (clearly he had others). They would not be sitting around with "cocktails" and "appys" while that was going on. One person would be on aft watch just to watch out for other boaters so we would make a minimum of trouble.

So apparently, all this uproar is over a power boater who admittedly knows nothing about sailing, thinking he knows what he saw and nursing a fairly big grudge over a one-time incident.

I stand by what I said. The time for cocktails and appetizers (which he may well have seen on a sailing boat) is out of the channel, on a nice long broad reach or maybe running with the wind ... not doing a bunch of short tacks up a long channel. It defies all logic to choose that moment to bring out the glamour treats.
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:51   #109
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by Boracay View Post
Not at 30 degrees...

My worst experiences of having a power boat go past are when it passes close by, but at an angle of 30 degrees to my track. Coming or going...

The waves from the bow and stern come back from the power boat at about that angle. That means that I catch the full effect right on my beam, causing maximum roll.

The best way to be over taken, other than having the power boat reduce speed to less than 8 knots, would be to pass at an angle of 60 degrees to my track, so that I encounter the waves of their wake bow on at 90 degrees.

I will confess to highly uncharitable thoughts as to what I would like to do to some of the worst offenders.

There is also the very good chance that you will spill your sails and make a difficult situation even more difficult.

I still think one really good option would be to offer the sailboat a tow.
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:54   #110
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Just a few weeks ago I was entering Sausolito under power around 1pm. A 40 foot sailboat also under power was coming out down his left side of the channel - i.e. on my side. I squeezed more right but it was clear I wouldn't make it between him and the pilings. I made a positive turn to port and got on the left side annoying a power boater also coming out slightly ahead of the sailboat and ended up leaving him to starboard. There was no room to go between them.

I wasn't going to say anything but as he passed he made a flip comment like, "Hey, you are headed the wrong way." Which I took to mean there was plenty of sailing time left. I replied, "Maybe so but maybe you want to take the right side of the channel." which wasn't very imaginative on my part as I did feel like being a lot ruder.

He looked at me quizically as he passed. A minute or so later I looked back and he had absorbed the clue and crossed.

There are dumasses in all kinds of boats. Maybe I should have stood on my rights and hit him.

If you had, maritime law could have chewed you up and spit you out, because the over-arching rule is to NOT stand on your rights, but to do everything possible to avoid a collision -- no matter who is "right" and who is "wrong." If you don't do whatever you can to avoid a collision, you are now very, very wrong.

Any sailboat using an engine or motor is, according to the regs, a power boat. The mast only counts if you're sailing AND your motor is off. Motor-sailing makes you a vessel under power.
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:55   #111
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
No, a tug and barge are NOT "just another power boat. I have read the regs. Being fairly new to sailing it's not that long ago that I took the Coast Guard's classes (as well as a number of other ones).

Boats towing ANYTHING have the right of way. If you're giving me a tow, we have the right of way over any other pleasure craft.

Commercial boats dragging nets always have the right of way (and need a much wider berth than many realize). Tugs towing barges ALWAYS have the right of way. It's about maneuverability. Very often they *cannot* do anything but what they are doing. If a sailboat or recreational boat gets anywhere near them, it's up to themselves to keep themselves safe.

I said nothing about a "reasonable" wake. I said you are responsible for the DAMAGE your wake does. Someone here joked about some boats "deserving" tsunamais from power boats. It is THAT "poor seaman" (to use your phrase) who is responsible for damages caused by his or her wake. Twisting what I said will not work, because I am not making it up as I go along.

If my boat responds sensitively to wakes (as my sailboat tends to do if not under sail) it IS my responsibility to turn into the wake. It IS my responsibility to secure the contents of my cabin when sailing. But if I'm at anchor, cooking dinner, and a power boat deliberately comes through the area of anchorage, circles my boat and wakes it, and smashes my dishes, well I know someone in this area who now has his video camera at the ready.

That really HAS happened to someone I know, and that story at least lines up with the laws of physics.
Not true...show me in the rules where a tug and barge are anything less than just another power vessel...why WOULD they show RAM lights/shapes when they ARE RAM and not just towing lights work?

I guess the last 10 years being an assistance tower and towing barges I've been screwing up...along with most of the community I work with.

There are sometimes a wake is necessary...even when near a "sailboat anchorage"...granted not by some yahoo powerboater...but many times in the same incorrect case you make about tugs and barges...sometimes pushing them through an area close to an anchorage....you better be ready for a pretty sizeable wake.
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:55   #112
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Wow. You all are really wound up tight. I go sailing precisely to get away from my regular lifestyle in which being tightly wound is de rigueur. Although I know the rules of the road, it is my policy to give way to any and all boats that are bigger and faster, lest they cause me irreparable harm. Similarly, I yield the right of way to smaller boats lest they be harmed by me. Furthermore, I apply the rule of the three P's: Preparation, planning, and choose between practice and prevention. Following the three P's keeps me out of situations in which I might have to rely on someone else's knowledge of the the rules of the road. To make things perfectly clear:
Dead right poem
Charles Pelkey
Here lies the body of George O'Day.
He died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right as he rode along,
But he is just as dead as if he were wrong.




'The Drunken Driver Has the Right Of Way'
by Ethan Coen
The loudest have the final say,
The wanton win, the rash hold sway,
The realist's rules of order say
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The Kubla Khan can butt in line;
The biggest brute can take what's mine;
When heavyweights break wind, that's fine;
No matter what a judge might say,
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The guiltiest feel free of guilt;
Who care not, bloom; who worry, wilt;
Plans better laid are rarely built
For forethought seldom wins the day;
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The most attentive and unfailing
Carefulness is unavailing
Wheresoever fools are flailing;
Wisdom there is held at bay;,
The drunken driver has the right of way.

De jure is de facto's slave;
The most foolhardy beat the brave;
Brass routs restraint; low lies high's grave;
When conscience leads you, it's astray;
The drunken driver has the right of way.

It's only the naivest who'll
Deny this, that the reckless rule;
When facing an oncoming fool
The practiced and sagacious say
Watch out — one side — look sharp — gang way.

However much you plan and pray,
Alas, alack, tant pis, oy vey,
Now — heretofore — til Judgment Day,
The drunken driver has the right of way.




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Old 01-12-2011, 06:08   #113
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Being nice needs no excuse. Being nasty has none.

Let's keep this discussion nice.
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Old 01-12-2011, 06:41   #114
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It may be useful to post the regs. A RAM vessel is generally a vessel that canot maneuver due to the nature of her "work" - there are examples but one would be hard prressed to make a case that any pleasure vessel "not working" could be RAM. In most cases cited in this thread in fact the "ships" in channel are more probably Constrained by Draught - they can and do maneuver left and right in the channel, especially when passing each other head on. And while there arre no special rights for towing, a towing vessel can be deemed to be RAM and attempt to claim such rights.

It would also be an interesting case for a sailboat tacking up a channel to try and claim she was CbD...

And to argue what is or isnt a narrow channel would be fruitless. I can make 360's all day long in our channel but the ships that pass would be aground on both sides at once of they were somehow able to be turned perpendicular to it.


(g) The term “vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre” means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term “vessels restricted in their ability to manoeuvre” shall include but not be limited to:

(i) a vessel engaged in laying, servicing or picking up a navigation mark, submarine cable or pipeline;

(ii) a vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;

(iii) a vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;

(iv) a vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;

(v) a vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;

(vi) a vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.

(h) The term “vessel constrained by her draught” means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draught in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water, is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:45   #115
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I'm not quite sure why you don't think rule 9 applies to small power vessels?

If the channel is the only place where a vessel can safely operate then why wouldn't rule 9 apply if that person is in the channel and following it?

I agreeit get's a little weird applying rules of the road to small vessels...but the rules areexpected to be followed big or small...and just because some of our vessel operate in a much smaller scale environment...but like a lot of "so called experts" like to point out on this board...it the rule fits...you gotta wear it...

There IS/SEEMS TO BE a lot of room for interpretation swometimes....like what is the definition of "narrow channel"??? I have been looking for one for over 10 years now in all kinds of literature and web searches. If there is none...then why would Mark's statement be so apparantly incorrect?
Logic. If his vessel can only operate in a narrow channel then so can mine. He doesn't in some way have precedence over that channel, we are both to keep as "near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which Iies on
her starboard side as is safe and practicable". If I'm under sail that may mean I'm tacking and when he overtakes me we are both limited by the channel and have to work it out.
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Old 01-12-2011, 08:57   #116
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Logic. If his vessel can only operate in a narrow channel then so can mine. He doesn't in some way have precedence over that channel, we are both to keep as "near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which Iies on
her starboard side as is safe and practicable". If I'm under sail that may mean I'm tacking and when he overtakes me we are both limited by the channel and have to work it out.
YOUR logic...while I agree any passing situation has to have some sort of signal....I'm not sure tacking isn't "crossing" the channel at some point...and therefore the "give way vessel" ...that's why I said there's some interpretation that I have looked for but have not found in any written form. Especially the definition of a "narrow channel".

But then if you are a decent sized sailboat and tacking...I wouldn't necessarily call it a narrow channel in the eyes of a 30-40 something power vessel trying to manuever around you...that's why some of these discussions are hilarious...because in our minds eye we are all discussing completely different scenarios.
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:12   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingway

Logic. If his vessel can only operate in a narrow channel then so can mine. He doesn't in some way have precedence over that channel, we are both to keep as "near to the outer limit of the channel or fairway which Iies on
her starboard side as is safe and practicable". If I'm under sail that may mean I'm tacking and when he overtakes me we are both limited by the channel and have to work it out.
Actually I think 9(b) covers this.

(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

If we are talking a channel that leads to a marina, and everyone must use that channel to get to the Marina, the sailboat has to not impede the powerboat. You can argue with a judge about what "impeding" means but if the powerboat has to maneuver and or make speed corrections he's got a good argument.
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:29   #118
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Actually I think 9(b) covers this.

(b) A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

If we are talking a channel that leads to a marina, and everyone must use that channel to get to the Marina, the sailboat has to not impede the powerboat. You can argue with a judge about what "impeding" means but if the powerboat has to maneuver and or make speed corrections he's got a good argument.
I think this situation is covered if both the sail and power are under 20m and both need the channel...I think the sail is allowed to tack if in your direction and you have to coordinate a pass...but if the sail is coming the other way and tacks right in front of you...I don't think that's really covered except the golden rule of "don't have a collision"...but my personal interpretation is that sailboat that tacks right in front of you in a narrow channel without warning is poor seamanship.(so would the powerboater NOT expecting to be tacked in front of...)
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Old 01-12-2011, 09:45   #119
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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But then if you are a decent sized sailboat and tacking...I wouldn't necessarily call it a narrow channel in the eyes of a 30-40 something power vessel trying to manuever around you...that's why some of these discussions are hilarious...because in our minds eye we are all discussing completely different scenarios.
Really that's my point. If the channel is big enough that I can tack in it, it's also big enough that the usual rules apply for smaller craft. A power boat shouldn't expect that they won't have to make some allowance for the restriction being under sail puts on a boat.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:17   #120
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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That's not what it says. It says you shall not impede "the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway."

Sorry, that doesn't mean your vessel.
Agreed. They are talking about SHIPS underway, not marina entrances.
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