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Old 30-11-2011, 19:53   #91
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

The nice thing though about barges is they are professionals. The man that taught me to sail told me to make my intentions obvious to them or talk to them on the radio if we are both in restricted maneuvering. The barge does have right of way but if I tell them I can't go any higher or the wind is blowing me too bad to move then they are more than happy to do what they can. Power boaters have never once answered their radio when I have called them. When I point my bow sharply to port, that means I am wanting to go to that side and they should answer by turning theirs to port. Normally. They never do.
The way they sometimes really get dangerous is in our part of the icw. They can just barrel right over the edge of the shoals on either side of the channel and go pretty much wherever they want. They can also come from nearly any direction. I have a 100 foot wide at the most channel to maneuver in. Sailboats really do get the short end of the stick I swear. At least when I was conning a frigate, battleship and a carrier there was no question as to who had right of way. Ever. This is a whole new ball game.
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Old 30-11-2011, 20:29   #92
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We have lots of ship and barge traffic here. The only caveat based on my experience is to pass barges on the downwind side whenever possible, unless there is room to safely tack away on the upwind side. The prudent skipper is always planning 10 minutes or more ahead and always has an out if possible.

When racing around here it is pretty much a given that motors can be started in neutral when crossing the channel. If the wind calms (pretty common) the motor may be used to make way with no penalty if there is no advantage taken. This is generally assumed to be a move perpendicular to the channeland or race line to get away from a ship. It is up to the zkipper to decide his strategy. I have attached a shot of Relax Lah in beer can race to demonstrate...

In regards to sailing into a marina channel, especially a long one, I believe in give and take. I have no problem short tacking and letting powerboats or sailboats under power passing on the right side and think its a bit rude to assert my rights in this situation. If the channel is so crowded that sailing in is problematic I would and have switch to motor sailing. The channel is a good pkace to have crew stow the sails and square away the boat.
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Old 30-11-2011, 20:43   #93
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Rakuflames,
August (something) 2009. Surge Narrows. Wind astern. Heading South. zig zag, zig zag, zig zag (perhaps one more zig zag). About 30' sailboat (maybe 32'). I'm a power boater not a sailer. It's about .5 nm through the narrows. I was there at slack by coincidence because in my boat - I don't need slack tide. There were appy's and drinks. I presumed the drinks to be cocktails. Not tacking. Disbelieve if you like.
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Old 30-11-2011, 22:41   #94
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
A sailboat -- either under power or under sail -- does not have the right of way over a commercial vessel towing a barge.

If I had your boat and had to go under that fixed bridge I would make sure power boats were clear first. I just wouldn't expect all power boats to get the effect of their wakes. I got myself towed off when I was unsuccessful freeing it myself.

I was aground once and the tide was going out and was going to be very low. I got a tow because I couldn't count on power boats to keep the wake down. I could have been banged on my rudder.

I don't expect power boaters to get all the ins and outs of sailing, but I do think they should know the "rules of the road," which really do include a couple of things here:

1) when overtaking a boat, the boat being overtaken has the right of way

2) sailboats (if not under power) have the right of way over power boats.

3) Power boats are responsible for the damage their wakes do.

Pleasure boats of any kind never have right of way over barges, and I hope people know to give them a wide berth, as they have very limited maneuverability. If they WANTED to miss you they might not be able to.
Better reread the rules or be more specific.

A tug and barge are just another power boat unless they declare RAM.
There are some situations like rule 9 where sailboats aren't automatically the stand on vessel.
And being responsible for your wake is really only an act of seamanship...not being able to take a reasonable wake is poor seamanship too and equally arguable in a hearing/pissing match.

Do I think many powerboaters are clueless??? Sure do...probably just as many as the clueless sailors out there...
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Old 30-11-2011, 23:34   #95
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
That's not what it says. It says you shall not impede "the passage of a vessel that can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway."

Sorry, that doesn't mean your vessel.
Really? I wouldn't want to meet you on the Petaluma River, the Napa River, and so on.
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Old 30-11-2011, 23:39   #96
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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I'm quite certain that you're not a sailor, because there is nothing "leisurely" about tacking upwind through a channel. It takes the coordinated effort of at least two people -- one at the wheel or tiller, and one (or more) on the headsail sheets.
Yeah, it's a really big deal. Push the tiller, release the sheet, take in the other sheet. Must have done it a thousand times, often by myself. And I'm not talking dinghies.
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Old 01-12-2011, 00:06   #97
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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I don't mind the slow moving sailboat running dow a narrow channel, and I will ease by him giving as much room as possible. The ones who bug me are the ones going slowely down the middle, refuse to move to the side to allow room to pass, and or zig-zag across the channel making a safe pass impossible.

All other time I give a wide berth, after all it is a big ocean out there, plenty of room for everyone.
Hey Capn Bill
Remenber that some of us that drive down the middle of the road...Zig zag.......and generraly try to run you off the road are PSSD sufferers from IRAQ...Truck drivers wen't supposed to have guns there but no rules here.....I can get off my meds at any point in life and have a 30 day vacation.....
Mark
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Old 01-12-2011, 00:37   #98
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Not at 30 degrees...

My worst experiences of having a power boat go past are when it passes close by, but at an angle of 30 degrees to my track. Coming or going...

The waves from the bow and stern come back from the power boat at about that angle. That means that I catch the full effect right on my beam, causing maximum roll.

The best way to be over taken, other than having the power boat reduce speed to less than 8 knots, would be to pass at an angle of 60 degrees to my track, so that I encounter the waves of their wake bow on at 90 degrees.

I will confess to highly uncharitable thoughts as to what I would like to do to some of the worst offenders.
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Old 01-12-2011, 00:48   #99
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Really? I wouldn't want to meet you on the Petaluma River, the Napa River, and so on.
Because you can't read and think your vessel is restricted to a narrow channel? Sorry, I'm guessing neither your beam, draft or maneuverability qualifies you.
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:05   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld

Better reread the rules or be more specific.

A tug and barge are just another power boat unless they declare RAM.
There are some situations like rule 9 where sailboats aren't automatically the stand on vessel.
And being responsible for your wake is really only an act of seamanship...not being able to take a reasonable wake is poor seamanship too and equally arguable in a hearing/pissing match.

Do I think many powerboaters are clueless??? Sure do...probably just as many as the clueless sailors out there...
Just a few weeks ago I was entering Sausolito under power around 1pm. A 40 foot sailboat also under power was coming out down his left side of the channel - i.e. on my side. I squeezed more right but it was clear I wouldn't make it between him and the pilings. I made a positive turn to port and got on the left side annoying a power boater also coming out slightly ahead of the sailboat and ended up leaving him to starboard. There was no room to go between them.

I wasn't going to say anything but as he passed he made a flip comment like, "Hey, you are headed the wrong way." Which I took to mean there was plenty of sailing time left. I replied, "Maybe so but maybe you want to take the right side of the channel." which wasn't very imaginative on my part as I did feel like being a lot ruder.

He looked at me quizically as he passed. A minute or so later I looked back and he had absorbed the clue and crossed.

There are dumasses in all kinds of boats. Maybe I should have stood on my rights and hit him.
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:24   #101
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Maybe I should have stood on my rights and hit him.
Pretty sure right of way rules state that even if one party is in contravention of the rules, both parties are always required to take action to avoid a collision.

So you did the right thing.
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Old 01-12-2011, 04:04   #102
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Pretty sure right of way rules state that even if one party is in contravention of the rules, both parties are always required to take action to avoid a collision.

So you did the right thing.
Pesky rules - LOL

It did cross my mind that I would be the dumass if the powerboat and I collided...
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:25   #103
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

In regards to who has the right of way, In my years I have been involved in 5 major collisions. Each one proven to be the other guys fault. First one was chinese tanker vs american carrier in the malaca straights. Then 50 foot sailboat vs carrier in sydney harbor. Then Russian (spy) trawler vs carrier in the sea of Japan, Then sailboat vs frigate in the channel coming into the panama canal. Then Destroyer tender vs pier in cuba. Oh sorry that one was my captains fault. The pier obviously had right of way. haha.

In each of those first 4 the ship that got ran over disobeyed every common courtesy rule of the road there was. They got smashed. It's hard to turn an aircraft carrier only going 4 knots and near impossible to turn a 400 foot long frigate in a channel less than 100 feet wide. People have to think about this stuff. Communication couldn't have prevented those incidents but in most cases it could have. People have to state their intentions and follow through with them. If you don't then you are no better than all those idiots on the highway in Dallas or baltimore that refuse to use turn signals.

As for windward or leeward side, Barges are kinda like sailboats too. When they are going down a channel with a 30-40 knot wind from the side they are crabbing, just like I would be under engine power. That's why either I or my wife gets on the radio and talks to them. It makes everyone a lot happier that way. I always like windward side if I can. Tug captains know why and almost always give it to me. It is close when we do pass but we both are prepared for it so it's safe. The biggest reason I prefer windward is I can guarantee all of you out there that those tug captains know the ICW and other channels better than we do. They know every bump in the road and every shoal. Most barges on our ICW are running empty and actually less draft than me so my boat closest to windward is safest. Also I don't have to worry about coming out of their shadow on the other side and getting blown aground. It happens real easy on a 30 foot sailboat. Even under engine power.
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:31   #104
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
We have lots of ship and barge traffic here. The only caveat based on my experience is to pass barges on the downwind side whenever possible, unless there is room to safely tack away on the upwind side. The prudent skipper is always planning 10 minutes or more ahead and always has an out if possible.

When racing around here it is pretty much a given that motors can be started in neutral when crossing the channel. If the wind calms (pretty common) the motor may be used to make way with no penalty if there is no advantage taken. This is generally assumed to be a move perpendicular to the channeland or race line to get away from a ship. It is up to the zkipper to decide his strategy. I have attached a shot of Relax Lah in beer can race to demonstrate...

In regards to sailing into a marina channel, especially a long one, I believe in give and take. I have no problem short tacking and letting powerboats or sailboats under power passing on the right side and think its a bit rude to assert my rights in this situation. If the channel is so crowded that sailing in is problematic I would and have switch to motor sailing. The channel is a good pkace to have crew stow the sails and square away the boat.

I agree it would be rude to tack into a narrow channel if you have no other choice. I really don't think most sailors would do that, and I don't believe for a NY moment that anyone here saw someone "leisurely" doing that while enjoying cocktails and appetizers. The two things are completely incompatible.

But as I said, where I am, we have a lot of small motorless sail boats. They have no choice except to tack down that narrow channel if the wind is on the nose.
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:36   #105
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Rakuflames,
August (something) 2009. Surge Narrows. Wind astern. Heading South. zig zag, zig zag, zig zag (perhaps one more zig zag). About 30' sailboat (maybe 32'). I'm a power boater not a sailer. It's about .5 nm through the narrows. I was there at slack by coincidence because in my boat - I don't need slack tide. There were appy's and drinks. I presumed the drinks to be cocktails. Not tacking. Disbelieve if you like.

What you originally said was that the people on the sailboat -- all of them -- were leisurely enjoying cocktails and appetizers as they zigzagged through the channel.

Now you don't know what they were drinking. Maybe they'd had a long, exhausting day with engine problems and were just eating some badly needed food? But the picture you painted was of a boat magically sailing itself through a number of tacks while the entire crew partied. That's what you said -- go back and read your own post.

What you described is impossible not according to me but according to the laws of physics, so yes, I don't believe you.

I'm sorry. You didn't know what you were seeing because you don't know how to sail. I could watch someone building a diesel engine from scratch and I guarantee you I'd get important details wrong, too.

My point is that since you clearly don't know anything about sailing, you also don't know about the obstacles we can face, and should probably stop deciding that some sailboats deserve a hard wake, and instead cut them some slack.

One option would have been to offer a sailboat in that kind of situation a tow and solve a problem for lots of people.
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