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Old 07-12-2011, 21:07   #196
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Very clever. You know you've lost in the battle to understand the basics of maritime law, so you've switched to racing rules.
Judge, jury and executioner?
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Old 07-12-2011, 21:28   #197
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Frankly, as the OP, I've followed this thread with great interest. Originally, My post was not concerned with the rules per se - rather what was the polite/courteous/preferred method for passing. I also think I now understand the difference between a tack and a gybe. Thanks. To contribute to the current direction of this thread one of the rules I always keep in the back of my mind is the 'do unto others' rule. If you then 'turn the other cheek' you probably don't need to rely on CAR. If I blindly asserted my right of way into a collision, that serves me right. Thankfully, I'm prepared to give the right of way even if I'm the stand on vessel and generally, act as though sailboats always have the right of way. My daughter hates rolling motion so perhaps I'm sensitive to how my wake affects other boats especially sailboats. That doesn't mean I relish other boaters (power or sail) acting overly aggressively, or contrary to the rules. However, anytime on the H2O is good time and it's easy to avoid gritting teeth. If these are the worst of our problems, how lucky are we? Cheers,
Bill
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Old 07-12-2011, 21:56   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Very clever. You know you've lost in the battle to understand the basics of maritime law, so you've switched to racing rules.
By the power vested in me I hereby declare Rakuflames the winner in the great 2011 CF passing in a channel debate. Everything I said was in error and I was sneaky in my tactics finally resorting to obfuscation by citing the non-related rules of racing. It was pedantic and unfair to reepeatedly cite rule 9(b) passing in a channel rule especially as Rakuflames specifically stated that he never cited this rule so it was irrelevant.

I hereby freely admit that I know nothing about the rules of navigating a boat and am seriously contemplating giving my license back and selling my boat.

(RF - please don't be annoyed. I am a sarcastic bugger with weird humor. We'd probably share a beer quite amicably at the sailing club as we further hashed out this topic. As the loser I buy, of course. I don't ever hold grudges either. If being online annoyed me I would find another way to spend my time.)

As always we are now up to 20 trillion and about 100 words and still no one on the internet has ever changed their mind.

BTW - Under racing rules If boat a called for room and didn't subsequently tack she would have fouled and would have lost a properly lodged protest. But what do I know as one who has been publicly and internationally humiliated for not knowing the rules - LOL (At least I have been described as "very clever" - blush...)
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Old 07-12-2011, 22:11   #199
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Let's pull up anchor.

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Old 08-12-2011, 11:32   #200
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Lee View Post
Frankly, as the OP, I've followed this thread with great interest. Originally, My post was not concerned with the rules per se - rather what was the polite/courteous/preferred method for passing. I also think I now understand the difference between a tack and a gybe. Thanks. To contribute to the current direction of this thread one of the rules I always keep in the back of my mind is the 'do unto others' rule. If you then 'turn the other cheek' you probably don't need to rely on CAR. If I blindly asserted my right of way into a collision, that serves me right. Thankfully, I'm prepared to give the right of way even if I'm the stand on vessel and generally, act as though sailboats always have the right of way. My daughter hates rolling motion so perhaps I'm sensitive to how my wake affects other boats especially sailboats. That doesn't mean I relish other boaters (power or sail) acting overly aggressively, or contrary to the rules. However, anytime on the H2O is good time and it's easy to avoid gritting teeth. If these are the worst of our problems, how lucky are we? Cheers,
Bill
Well said; enough talk, time to go boating.

If I'm in a busy traffic line I drop to minimum planing speed as any further and there is a big wave as my hull drops to displacement, and if the're in a shipping channel the freighters wake is 10-100 times bigger than mine, and they don't slow or change course for anything.

Otherwise I drop all the way to no wake speed, several boat lengths ahead of time so my wakes have time to dissipate before I pass, otherwise it doesn't do any good.

So far the only one finger salute I've gotten, is from the small sailboat I tried to squeeze around, who was randomly tacking over the entire channel. I tried several times to pass, it was a very long and narrow channel, and he felt the need to tack each time I attempted it.
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Old 08-12-2011, 12:10   #201
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pirate Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

There are times when a sailboat has no choice but to tack up a narrow channel...
I had to when I bent my prop shaft picking up a sunken mooring in Taylors Creek, Beaufort.NC.....
The only yard and people I knew... and where my credit was good was in Oriental, so I waited for a favourable wind to get me up the ICW then I raised my hook and went for it...
Trouble was I had to tack out through the z bend entrance... great fun with lotsa power boaters getting pissed and calling me a mad bastard...
But... my Cherubini 37 handled like a dream and sailed me all the way into the slip at Whittakers Creek...
So Power guys... if you see one of us stick and rag folk pissing about in a narrow channel... its often NOT because we want to....
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Old 12-12-2011, 11:21   #202
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

A passenger snapped this picture on Friday, it's much like the diagram that I posted. I'm on a port tack getting closer to the channel edge, and that harbor tour boat back there overtook me without about 75' of room to spare. It happens a lot and for the folks who work constantly on the water you just get used to hustling around all the time. I'm in the beanie / gray jacket.

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Old 12-12-2011, 13:02   #203
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

I had a similar thing happen with a whale watching boat about the same size as that boat.
It was in Cattle Pass at the South end of San Juan Island.
He forced me within a boat length of oncoming traffic.
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Old 12-12-2011, 13:13   #204
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Avoid all boat traffic by sailing in your berth. (Reefing is recommended for most vessels.)

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Old 12-12-2011, 14:56   #205
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Lee View Post
Rakuflames,
August (something) 2009. Surge Narrows. Wind astern. Heading South. zig zag, zig zag, zig zag (perhaps one more zig zag). About 30' sailboat (maybe 32'). I'm a power boater not a sailer. It's about .5 nm through the narrows. I was there at slack by coincidence because in my boat - I don't need slack tide. There were appy's and drinks. I presumed the drinks to be cocktails. Not tacking. Disbelieve if you like.
Hi Bill.I've sailed through Surge quite a few times.
As to this example,it's hard to discern the situation exactly(it wasn't me)but
"slack" is a relative term there.The centre may be just a bunch of eddies and upwellings moving slowly while the edges of the channel are often a totally different scenario than the middle and generally need avoiding in a slow vessel...as a general rule,"Slack" water is the process of these same edge countercurrents swelling toward the middle and becoming the new and opposite current...Further,this sailboat might have had the general drift with him (and lost apparent wind going downwind)and therefore,to keep control,opted to zig-zag downwind to keep some speed AND avoid the contrary and strengthening current somehow....In fact,the apparent wind might even come against him and explain the "zig zagging"....but this is pretty hard to know.
IThe scenario probably is not a great example for your question"overtaking fast or slow" but for me,in order,the farther you are away and the faster you are away, the better.If there isn't room,Don't get in there with him.If he's going along with the tide he will soon be clear.
Sometimes,I have to drive along behind a semi-trailer tractor on a narrow winding road...that's life.I usuall wait for the safest opportunity to pass.I don't usually pick curves or tunnels for this!

That said,I meet lots of boats in passes.The best are the water-taxis,crewboats-FAST!I am just a drifting log to them,they are just a passing bird to me.Strive for this!
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Old 12-12-2011, 15:27   #206
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Good post HappySeagull. Sensibility really should rule.

A little story: I was standing on the point of Valdez Island watching a log boom come through with a fellow whose hobby it is to watch them while listening on a handheld VHF. The tugs had left it a little late and the current was beginning to run with them. They were committed so they had to continue. The reason it's a problem is that they lose control because the current begins to carry the logs. The narrows at Gabriola Passage is a short piece and where the difficulty lies.

Meanwhile a sailboat, also leaving it a little late, decided to come the other way. A wood ketch, he was clearly underpowered for fighting the current. The tug was hailing and blowing his horn but the sailboat didn't have a radio on and was ignoring the blasts. They got themselves into a standing way and really weren't making any progress. They were very close to the shore and within shouting distance so I yelled out they need to pack it in, the boom was coming their way. I was surprised how long these fellows took to accept the situation and that the guy yelled back "but we'll miss our opportunity". Well, I figured better a missed opportunity then having a log boom separate the bottom half of your boat from the top.

I figured the standing wave saved both parties from a lot of grief, the sailboat because it stopped them from getting into a position where they they were going to be forced onto the rocks and the log boom because, the tug operator told us as they went through, normally the boom would have put itself right on the point with the current but the wave deflected the boom, or so they thought.

Funny thing is, the wave was there in part because a motor boat had gone through with speed a short bit earlier.

This story doesn't have a moral except that getting through isn't the most important thing. As it happens they did get through anyway, on the other side where they should have been in the first place and after the boom had exited.
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Old 12-12-2011, 17:53   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart
A passenger snapped this picture on Friday, it's much like the diagram that I posted. I'm on a port tack getting closer to the channel edge, and that harbor tour boat back there overtook me without about 75' of room to spare. It happens a lot and for the folks who work constantly on the water you just get used to hustling around all the time. I'm in the beanie / gray jacket.
Her is my gasoline, here is my match. Assuming you are in a channel (its not clear to me), at this very point in time do you have the right to tack?

I am not talking if it is smart or necessary or anything like that. Under the regs how would you interpret the rights of these two boats.
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Old 12-12-2011, 20:00   #208
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Her is my gasoline, here is my match. Assuming you are in a channel (its not clear to me), at this very point in time do you have the right to tack?

I am not talking if it is smart or necessary or anything like that. Under the regs how would you interpret the rights of these two boats.
Based on the picture without any Navaids in sight...I would NOT "guess" that to be a narrow channel (again only an interpretation from a not too revealing photo)....therefore it would appear to be an open water overtaking situation...

In my experience...if I was the sailor...I'd call the overtaking vessel and let him know if I was about to tack if the distance glosed significantly when I planned to tack.
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Old 12-12-2011, 21:05   #209
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Based on the picture without any Navaids in sight...I would NOT "guess" that to be a narrow channel (again only an interpretation from a not too revealing photo)....therefore it would appear to be an open water overtaking situation...

In my experience...if I was the sailor...I'd call the overtaking vessel and let him know if I was about to tack if the distance glosed significantly when I planned to tack.
One vote for hail and tack...

Here's my considerations

- There appears to be navigable depth for both boat all around so it appears niether boat "has" to use the channel. (I reserve the right to reverse when RH posts the chartlet or tells us the location and we find it's 3 feet deep)
- I agree there is a normal passing situation developing
- My rule of thumb. If the speed of the passing boat is such that I cannot turn and cross his bow "safely" using normal maneuvering and current speed of both boats, then the "passing situation" has begun.
- The ferry is making a wake and it's hard to judge distance But with the look of the water (low wind) and sailboat wake I'd say the sailboat is barely moving.
- RH said the ferry passed about 75 feet laterally. About 2 lengths of the sailboat I would guess based on the beam of the sailboat
- If I tacked now I am not sure I would safely cross his bow so I judge the passing situation exists and passing rules are in effect.

My vote

- I wait 30 seconds to a minute and tack then. I am in no jeopardy if I wait. If I was in jeopardy I would tack through about 120 degrees and make it clear to the ferry that I would pass his stern.
- Yes I am judging him to have rights because I judge the passing situation has started

Reasoning

- If I tacked now I am not sure I could cross him and I must assume a risk of collision would exist after the tack - I would have sailing rights but the power boat would also presume a collision hazard exists and should alter to starboard or reduce speed.

If we collided he would argue a passing situation exised and I sailboat altered course and speed. Sailboat would argue a crossing situation existed and the sailboat had rights

(A note about the 120 degree tack. If I tacked 90, stabilized and then judged I could not cross - I can no longer alter to port because I am now in a crossing situation! And because I am close hauled already I can't alter to starboard to avoid the potential collision!)

Now - I look forward to the discussion that tacking is a good idea at this moment.
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Old 12-12-2011, 22:16   #210
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Her is my gasoline, here is my match. Assuming you are in a channel (its not clear to me), at this very point in time do you have the right to tack?

I am not talking if it is smart or necessary or anything like that. Under the regs how would you interpret the rights of these two boats.
Well here's him when he overtook us, I'd say 50-75' of distance.



Part of what makes it tricky is that I know the tour boat wants to stay near the edge of the channel because that's where he can best show the sights off to his passengers. We're supposed to stay to the right side of the channel anyway.

Do I have the right to tack? For sure, until that distance closes to the point where I'm blatantly crashing into him faster than he can move. This harbor on a busy weekend can be literally packed with boats so if overtaking vessels (who are on the absolute bottom end of the priority list under everything else) not restricted to the channel (like the harbor tour boat, or the thread starter) were given deference every sailing vessel would just sit there floundering because every time you tack you're effectively "cutting someone off".

Personally I give a lot of leeway to the people on the water who are earning a living out there, but as a charter captain on an uninspected vessel I'm just as legitimate a mariner as the tour boat operator but I blend in with all the private vessels.

Another thing worth mentioning is that I was probably making 6 knots on the top end, and he was probably making ~15 and capable of punching to 20. So tacking infront of him (let's say 100 yards in front) is still plenty of time for him to alter course and shoot my stern.

Honestly there's a part of me that feels like if you want to walk around with shoulder boards and have your little captain coffee mug up in your wheelhouse that's well and good but you had best be able to move your vessel and not just expect to bully your way through a harbor.
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