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Old 06-12-2011, 14:45   #181
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

The Southampton Waters are a great learning place.
Liners, Oil Tankers, limited depth, 'restrained by draught, multi x multi pleasure boats, racing yauchts, serious racing yachts, HoverCraft, fast commercial ferries, slow commercial ferries.
Commonsense and a politeness saw me through the early stages, staying outboard of the bouy'd channel, keeping watch all around, reading CruisersForum late into the night.
On many ferry trips I've seen, and felt, the ferry go astern to avoid overtaking a motoring sailboat skipper that fails to keep a watch other then straight ahead. I'm very surprised that horns aren't sounded more often, perhaps hearts of oak aren't that strong, it's usually the solo ancient mariner, comfortable with his capabilities and his boat that takes the central route.
Ships seem to get to 12 to 18 kts as minimum steerage (manouvring) speed with a tight 120 deg turn off cowes to round the Bramble Bank.
Easy for them? QE2 bumped the bank on it's last commercial voyage into S'oton!!!
A racing yacht got rammed by a tanker because it failed to Keep Watch, very lucky to remain afloat, dismasted, 4 crew in the water (non dragged into the prop) but many helping hands near by.
Just consider how much paperwork there will be, let alone a court appearance, wether you had right of way or not.
I still fail to understand why a fast manoeuvrable boat needs to crowd a small boat in order to save few seconds on his voyage!
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Old 06-12-2011, 15:31   #182
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Guess many small sailboats may not have a wistle or horn. Would make sense to carry a small air horn if manouvering in channels.
They are required to carry at least a whistle because they have to sound other signals such as fog...just not manuevering I guess....
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Old 06-12-2011, 16:23   #183
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

As a seven-knot-motorboat, we normally cross behind most all vessels.

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Old 06-12-2011, 19:40   #184
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Luffing can be just as bad depending upon the distances; at least while tacking you have steerage and losing that in close proximity to another vessel (and the rocks) isn't going to be any good.

The vessel overtaking is responsible; if they can't overtake safely (regardless of the reason) than they need to wait until a time when they can. Addressing the thread starter, there is no regulation or custom that provides for smaller power vessels to move around at 20 knots and everything in their way to deal with it.
Actually your picture shows a pretty good example of what the sailor would probably really do. The sail is luffing, the boat is slowly decelerating as he slowly turns head to wind, hoping the powerboat goes by before he loses all forward momentum and gets stuck in irons.

The sailboat dude is getting pissed because he has been impeded. The powerboat guy can't understand why this sailboat dude doesn't get a clue, drop his sails and start motoring. He's been approaching the sailboat from the rear trying to time his pass and eventually just "went" for it.

No paint was swapped and another grievance in the great powerboat/sailboat war was lodged...

Now advance the clock to 6-7pm on a fall Sunday in Sausolito channel. All you gotta do is add about 150 boats to the picture. Of course the wind is dying, the sailboat is making 2 knots and the channel is backed up like I5 on a Friday as the sailor asserts his rights.

Jist for clarity I have been talking strictly a passing situation in a channel. I have asssumed but not stated that the powerboat guy has maintained <5 knots as is posted in the channel. I don't know how fast the sailboat is going, or whether he is attempting to remain below 5 knots because I don't know the wind speed.

But maybe the sailboat is exempt from the speed limit because he is sailing?

I actually had this situation in Long Beach (I think) a couple of years ago. We were coming in under power with several boats. There was a small sailboat of about 15-18 feet with no engine, tacking back and forth between the slips - yes in a side channel. I was first and there were 4 boats backed up behind me. The 4th boat could not see the obstruction and was pissed, I am sure. The sailboat was making very little way and as a bonus appeared to be getting set a bit on each tack. To top it off he was not really the worlds best tacker,

I had tons of sympathy for the guy as he had no engine but eventually as he reached one side of the channel I gassed it at accelerated on by. He did have to duck my stern slighlty.

If you step back and look. Had we collided the prime burden would be on me as the overtaking boat, I would state he was impeding boats that had to use the channel and further he had the option to duck my stern thereby fulfilling his obligation (and mine) to avoid a collision.

Even if this guy had no burden to not impede, and I still say he did, courtesy says he should make an attempt to not hold up 4 boats following him in.

One could argue that we all should live our life at the 2 knot speed of the sailboat. But that is not fair and in some cases impractical. What if the powerboat is a 50 footer and very affected by windage. He might need more knots than he can turn to maintain safe steerage himself?
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Old 06-12-2011, 20:00   #185
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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The first rule (13a) concerning overtaking in colregs is pretty crystal clear:



The responsibility is almost entirely that of the overtaking vessel with very limited exceptions. There is no "right" to overtake another vessel, it's an option that you are allowed to conduct if certain conditions are met. Approaching too close to a sailing vessel that is going to need to tack soon when it's pinned up against some rocks is no where near acceptable.
Most of the time in the real world, sailboats are so slow that if tacking while being overtaken creates a risk of collision, the overtaking vessel is too damn close. And if the channel is so narrow that he needs to be that close to overtake, then its too narrow to be sailing in.

Regardless, even if you are the stand-on vessel with 'right of way', you cannot make any maneuver that will increase the risk of collision. Even as the stand-on vessel, you are required to do everything possible to avoid collision once it is apparent that the actions of the other vessel alone are not sufficient. If you don't the collision is partially your fault even though you had right of way. It could even be ruled mostly your fault if you could have avoided it but instead insisted on enforcing your 'rights'.
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Old 06-12-2011, 20:33   #186
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

"So you are saying that under 9(b) the powerboat, being under 20m is also burdened not to impede the sailboat who has to use the channel. Therefore they have equal rights and we have to go back to passing situation regs?"

I didn't say that. I never referred to 9(b) specifically.

What I WILL say for you is that the over-riding rule is to avoid a collision. I think that if you talk to a maritime law expert you will find that this includes forcing another boat to run aground unnecessarily, which is a collision between sailboat and the sea or lake bottom.

I'm saying that only a bully would force a sailboat into that situation instead of yielding (as required by the body of law), allowing the boat to SAFELY tack and get out of the way, and THEN passing.

I've been as clear as anyone could possibly be. All of the rules are superceded by the rule requiring ALL boats to do everything possible to avoid a collision. It recognizes that small boats have more maneuverability than things like tugs pulling barges (or pushing boats), freighters, tankers, cruise ships, and working fishing boats (I've probably left some out).

Or, individuals can self-select to believe that some secondary rule magically supercedes that over-arching rule to avoid accidents for some reason I can't imagine.
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Old 06-12-2011, 20:36   #187
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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So you are saying that under 9(b) the powerboat, being under 20m is also burdened not to impede the sailboat who has to use the channel. Therefore they have equal rights and we have to go back to passing situation regs?

I disagree that the power boat is impeding the sailboat. The sail boat did not hold course and speed while being overtaken. It tacked. By its action it impeded the powerboat who had to slow down to avoid a collision.

The sailboat had options not to sail in the channel. What if the channel we really full of two way traffic? It would be mayhem. Have you looked at this channel on a chart? It is also California. If you sailed this channel at "rush" hour forget colregs, someone would likely gat your a&&.

The idea that everyone is supposed to intuitively know what you are gonna do is ludicrous. That is no way to separate trafffic. For all I know you could be leaving the channel or had a fight with your wife and decided to crash the boat. I'm not supposed to guess. The regs say if you are being overtaken you hold course and speed. That's what I expect you to do. How you handle your boat is your problem.

BTW - based on the discussion. Probably aren't talking a passing situation. It is more likely a crossing situation that we are describing. Anyone know the (regulatory) difference?

Final point. You seem to be getting riled up butI am not trying to ruffle your feathers and this is not a powerboater vs. sailor thing. I am a sailor for Pete's sake not s powerboater.

"Have you looked at this channel on a chart?"

No, of course not. I never look at a chart. REAL sailors don't need no steenkin' charts. @@

OF COURSE --- we have all looked at charts.

You believe whatever you want to believe, but as I say, a video camera will now be in my cockpit, and if a power boater acts in the ways you advocate, I'll be on the phone to Fish and Wildlife, ready to send them the video, esp. if my boat is damaged as a result of the other boat's inexcusable selfishness and remarkable ability to rationalize what the rules really mean.
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Old 06-12-2011, 21:01   #188
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Quote:
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"So you are saying that under 9(b) the powerboat, being under 20m is also burdened not to impede the sailboat who has to use the channel. Therefore they have equal rights and we have to go back to passing situation regs?"

I didn't say that. I never referred to 9(b) specifically.

What I WILL say for you is that the over-riding rule is to avoid a collision. I think that if you talk to a maritime law expert you will find that this includes forcing another boat to run aground unnecessarily, which is a collision between sailboat and the sea or lake bottom.

I'm saying that only a bully would force a sailboat into that situation instead of yielding (as required by the body of law), allowing the boat to SAFELY tack and get out of the way, and THEN passing.

I've been as clear as anyone could possibly be. All of the rules are superceded by the rule requiring ALL boats to do everything possible to avoid a collision. It recognizes that small boats have more maneuverability than things like tugs pulling barges (or pushing boats), freighters, tankers, cruise ships, and working fishing boats (I've probably left some out).

Or, individuals can self-select to believe that some secondary rule magically supercedes that over-arching rule to avoid accidents for some reason I can't imagine.
Welcome to the internet. 20 trillion words - zero opinions changed...

- If you collide your sailboat with the ground and don't hit me. I'm fine with that. Making the case that you could not have avoided that collision by luffing, dropping sails and anchor, starting your motor if you had one etc., and that I was responsible for your poor seamanship would be an interesting read.
- I also would be interested to read how the, "He's a bully defense" goes in court.

I don't think in any example I unburdened myself from avoiding a collision. If you tacked on me I would of course change course. If the collision still happened I have fulfilled my burden to, take any measure possible to avoid the collision once that collision is deemed imminent. I am too lazy at this point to copy paste the paragraph but that is essentially what is says.

Not to muddy the water but the racing rules of sailing are a lot more specific about immovable objects and providing room. The good news is that these rules are tested every single weekend at protest hearings around the world and no one ends up going to jail.

The point being that the rule about everyone avoiding a collision stands. However there can be no apportionment of blame. Someone must win and someone must lose in order to have a race result. In every case, if the non-burdened boat, turns the helm, even 3 inches before the collision, he has usually fulfilled his obligation to "try" to avoid that collision. Watch some competitive match racing some time. These guys aim for each other, establishing rights and forcing the other boat to do what they want based on those rights.

Again not to muddy the waters. There are **** loads of bullies in a sailboat race. They will shout at you and intimidate you. They are testosterone laden b***holes most of the time, they are spending a lot of money to race and win. When you get 40 boats on a start line you better know your rights. If you get pinned to a shore, the commitee boat, a dock, shallow water and don't have rights, no one is gonna get their foot off your throat, and they would be happy to see you splinter your boat. You bettere know your rights and options in this situation.

BTW - Passing rules are completely different in sailboat racing so its not really pertinent to what we are talking about except to know your rights. I's not a guessing game. It's all written down. Unfortunately it only gets tested in court and none of us really want to go to court every weekend.

In the meantime, I will be on the lookout for boats with video cameras on the backstay, as they obviously have right of way.
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Old 06-12-2011, 21:04   #189
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
BTW - Passing rules are completely different in sailboat racing so its not really pertinent to what we are talking about except to know your rights. I's not a guessing game. It's all written down. Unfortunately it only gets tested in court and none of us really want to go to court every weekend.
True enough, but we cruisers could learn a bit from the racers when it comes to short-tacking a channel. When the pinned boat is nearly run aground, it calls for sea room, and everybody tacks away.

Now that's civilized.
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Old 06-12-2011, 21:06   #190
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Ex Calif said,

"The courteous motor boater passes to stern but is not obligated to do so. He is obligated to pass safely as not to interfere with the boat holding course."

Around here, at least half of the power boaters will change course (sometimes in a vain attempt if I'm really sailing fast) to cross our bow.

Near Sucia Island in the San Juans on a brisk October day, a displacement hulled power boat changed course to try to cross our bow. He kept changing and changing, but we were close hauled doing about 12 knots. He basically drag raced us for nearly a mile before he gave up and resumed course.

And no, he wasn't rubbernecking or taking pictures.

Arghh.
That is noticeable to me too. It must be a human nature thing. Like picking the shortest line at the bank. We have some internal competitiveness that requires us to be ahead of the other humans.

I "always" pick the short line that has the granny with her life savings of pennies to deposit. I used to get ulcerated by this. Now I catch up on things with my iPhone. The iPhone has revolutionized standing in line for me.
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Old 06-12-2011, 21:19   #191
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True enough, but we cruisers could learn a bit from the racers when it comes to short-tacking a channel. When the pinned boat is nearly run aground, it calls for sea room, and everybody tacks away.

Now that's civilized.
Ah, Bash. I knew you'd know the rules! Move to the head of the class - LOL

It gets fun when the pinned boat calls for room too early, is surprised 4 seconds later that the shore has turned the wind, as it will, he is nicely lifted and he finds he can actually still run along this shore out of the adverse current running in the center of the race course. He decides not to tack like that other stupid guy did who is severely headed. This race is in the bag!

What next race fans?
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Old 07-12-2011, 07:02   #192
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Rule #2 addresses a lot of that. Basically stating that the point of colregs is reduce collisions first and foremost. If the actions you are taking (regardless of anything else) are not reducing the risk of a collision, you are at fault.

Exactly my point, tacking in front of a faster moving boat is not avoiding a collision.

If the channel is wide enough to sail in, then the sailboat has room to tack mid channel, leaving half the channel for passing. If the sailboat needs the entire channel to tack, then he is blocking traffic going both directions,...missing from the drawing is the other 70-80 boats also trying to either leave or enter the bay.
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Old 07-12-2011, 19:52   #193
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The L-L-S or L-L-S-S passing signal in fairways or narrow channels is an international signal I'm pretty sure

and Tugs that plug into the back of barges could either be a tow (if tied together and could be RAM or at least have the option...if mechanically fastened then it's a composite unit and has to act just like any other power vessel.
This one stuck in my brain. There are certainly lots of vessel types.

This guy was flying a diamond so at least he thought he was a tow and big one (<200m) at that. Wish I hadda picture. If I see him again I will get one.

Agree with everything you said btw...
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Old 07-12-2011, 20:33   #194
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Welcome to the internet. 20 trillion words - zero opinions changed...

- If you collide your sailboat with the ground and don't hit me. I'm fine with that. Making the case that you could not have avoided that collision by luffing, dropping sails and anchor, starting your motor if you had one etc., and that I was responsible for your poor seamanship would be an interesting read.
- I also would be interested to read how the, "He's a bully defense" goes in court.

I don't think in any example I unburdened myself from avoiding a collision. If you tacked on me I would of course change course. If the collision still happened I have fulfilled my burden to, take any measure possible to avoid the collision once that collision is deemed imminent. I am too lazy at this point to copy paste the paragraph but that is essentially what is says.

Not to muddy the water but the racing rules of sailing are a lot more specific about immovable objects and providing room. The good news is that these rules are tested every single weekend at protest hearings around the world and no one ends up going to jail.

The point being that the rule about everyone avoiding a collision stands. However there can be no apportionment of blame. Someone must win and someone must lose in order to have a race result. In every case, if the non-burdened boat, turns the helm, even 3 inches before the collision, he has usually fulfilled his obligation to "try" to avoid that collision. Watch some competitive match racing some time. These guys aim for each other, establishing rights and forcing the other boat to do what they want based on those rights.

Again not to muddy the waters. There are **** loads of bullies in a sailboat race. They will shout at you and intimidate you. They are testosterone laden b***holes most of the time, they are spending a lot of money to race and win. When you get 40 boats on a start line you better know your rights. If you get pinned to a shore, the commitee boat, a dock, shallow water and don't have rights, no one is gonna get their foot off your throat, and they would be happy to see you splinter your boat. You bettere know your rights and options in this situation.

BTW - Passing rules are completely different in sailboat racing so its not really pertinent to what we are talking about except to know your rights. I's not a guessing game. It's all written down. Unfortunately it only gets tested in court and none of us really want to go to court every weekend.

In the meantime, I will be on the lookout for boats with video cameras on the backstay, as they obviously have right of way.

Very clever. You know you've lost in the battle to understand the basics of maritime law, so you've switched to racing rules.
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Old 07-12-2011, 20:36   #195
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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That is noticeable to me too. It must be a human nature thing. Like picking the shortest line at the bank. We have some internal competitiveness that requires us to be ahead of the other humans.

I "always" pick the short line that has the granny with her life savings of pennies to deposit. I used to get ulcerated by this. Now I catch up on things with my iPhone. The iPhone has revolutionized standing in line for me.
Sure. If it's a really long line I pull out my Kindle. it's just not worth getting flapped over.

I think there is an innate competitiveness in many people Probably evolution rewarded competitive individuals.
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