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Old 06-12-2011, 09:35   #166
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

I'm constantly amazed at how some forum members provide opinions on the rules of the road without reading them first.

Here's 9(b): A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

I don't read anything in there that implies that a sailboat has a right to tack when it reaches the edge of a narrow channel or fairway.
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Old 06-12-2011, 10:10   #167
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by Bill Lee View Post
I like to think that I'm a polite power boater. I typically cruise my 42' power boat at 21 knots. I have a sizable wake at this speed. So... How do you want me to pass you when I'm coming up behind you and be specific about speed differentials and distance and how do you want me to pass you when we're heading in opposite directions (again, be specific). Thanks and cheers,
Bill
However you like man. Wakes are just part of being on the water unless it's a dinghy race or something else of the sort but those are typically held in speed restricted zones. The only thing I would be watchful for is overtaking a sailboat (under sail) that will need to tack soon. I tried to make a diagram of it, no laughing at my terrible drawing:



What's happening is that sailboat A is being overtaken by vessel B, however vessel A is going to need to tack soon and will be on a new course of C. When A tacks it will be a sudden shift that vessel B probably didn't see coming.

Vessel A shouldn't interfere with vessel B, but vessel B is responsible for the overall overtaking.
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Old 06-12-2011, 10:27   #168
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

and no laughing that the sail is on the wrong side. i'll say i did that on purpose and it's currently tacking.
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Old 06-12-2011, 10:28   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart

However you like man. Wakes are just part of being on the water unless it's a dinghy race or something else of the sort but those are typically held in speed restricted zones. The only thing I would be watchful for is overtaking a sailboat (under sail) that will need to tack soon. I tried to make a diagram of it, no laughing at my terrible drawing:

What's happening is that sailboat A is being overtaken by vessel B, however vessel A is going to need to tack soon and will be on a new course of C. When A tacks it will be a sudden shift that vessel B probably didn't see coming.

Vessel A shouldn't interfere with vessel B, but vessel B is responsible for the overall overtaking.
Thanks for the drawing RH I have been contemplating making one. In your drawing the overtaking is happening and the boats are overlapped. Sailboat is not allowed to tack. He can luff up and drift if he wants but he cant tack.

Back the picture up about 2 minutes - before sailboat crossed the powerboat. Sailboat, planning ahead presumes he will be overtaken, he short tacks and does not cross. No problemo. The burden is on the sailboat to plan ahead. Not for the powerboater to predict sailboats future actions.

I have attached a shot of San Leandro channel. It is 2.1 miles and I guess 300 feet wide. If you sail up this channel in traffic you are dumb. If this were the channel in question, I powerboater, might presume you would cross me and head out of the channel until I finished my pass. I have no idea what depth you draw. But I have a right to expect you won't tack on top of me.

BTW - boat wakes don't bother me except in no wake zones and anchorages. It's your water too Mr. Big Displacement -wake all you want. If you are asking please cross astern, wakes on the bow kill my boat speed. Also if the wind is low and I am drifting especially cross astern, I could probably use the surf... Pass however you like parallel is good, I'll find the right angle to surf it. Wakes. Much ado about not too much.
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Old 06-12-2011, 11:22   #170
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
However you like man. Wakes are just part of being on the water unless it's a dinghy race or something else of the sort but those are typically held in speed restricted zones. The only thing I would be watchful for is overtaking a sailboat (under sail) that will need to tack soon. I tried to make a diagram of it, no laughing at my terrible drawing:



What's happening is that sailboat A is being overtaken by vessel B, however vessel A is going to need to tack soon and will be on a new course of C. When A tacks it will be a sudden shift that vessel B probably didn't see coming.

Vessel A shouldn't interfere with vessel B, but vessel B is responsible for the overall overtaking.

Good drawing, this is exactly the scenario I've seen repeatedly. Boat B can be anywhere in the channel, and boat A will still find a way to get in front of him. It's like trying to dodge a giant slow moving squirrel.
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Old 06-12-2011, 11:38   #171
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Why don't we ACTUALLY describe what the rules require...

If inland...which I'm guessing most people are talking about...the rules require an agreement for passing by whistle or radio when within 1/2 mile of one another (I know...pretty silly and often ignored) but in the case of ovetaking a sailboat in a channel the answer is easily within the signal...if the sailboat is about to tack...then it would disagree if the power vessel is requesting a pass on that side. If the power vessel changes the side...then the sailboat can answer in agreement and go ahead and tack whenever because the overtaking vessel has to stay clear anyway.

It's not that hard but many here really don't know the rules all that well...especially some that expect it all just to be common sense and not written down pretty clearly for most situations.

And while fishing vessels can't impede traffic...they are most certainly allowed to fish in everything including TSSs
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Old 06-12-2011, 12:07   #172
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Sailboats not under power aren't required to sound maneuvering signals.
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Old 06-12-2011, 12:22   #173
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
It is the obligation of the stand-on vessel (a term not used in the regs any more but we know what it means) to maintain course and speed WHILE AVOIDING AN ACCIDENT.

If the stand-on vessel is a sailboat under sail, any idiot can see that when they get near the edge of the channel they are going to HAVE to tack. That "give-way" vessel has been behind them for a while and knows that sailboat is tacking up the channel.

So in that situation, maintaining course AND speed requires a tack.

Where do you suggest this sailboat go instead of tacking? The only choice is "aground." You can't "heave to" in a channel. That does NOT stop all movement. The boat will then drift WITH THE WIND. With the wind on the nose that may be backwards, but more likely, the wind is only "close" toi the nose.

That means the boat will drift MORE SLOWLY into your path, and more unpredictably, or ..,. aground.

Apparently you are only concerned with going as fast as you can without regard for other boaters. I don't know what other conclusion to draw. But I guarantee you that after this conversation I will have an inexpensive video camera in my cockpit along with horn, flares, etc., and I WILL have the evidence I need if someone like you comes up behind me and decides he has the right of way just because he wants it.
I may be wrong, but I think the term 'right of way' is the one that is no longer in the regs, and was replaced by 'stand on vessel' and 'give-way vessel', but you're right, we all do know what it means.

If you'll look at my personal info, you'll see that I'm a sail boater, not a power boater. Sorry, but just because a boat (sail or power) is the stand-on vessel does not mean that they can do anything they want when being overtaken. I think that's probably why they dropped the term 'right of way'.

According to the regs, your obligation is to maintain course and speed while being overtaken. To me, that means you try and time your tacks or jybes so as not to be cutting in front of a passing vessel.

Regardless of who has right of way, that's just common courtesy.

I don't know how quickly your boat tacks, but mine takes 10 - 20 seconds to come about and start picking up speed on the new tack. That's enough time for a power boat to complete a pass. And I can always hold the boat head to wind with the sails luffing if necessary for a few more seconds if he's too close.

If you're waiting until you're almost aground at the edge of the channel before starting your tack, you don't have any margin of error, and if you let yourself get pinned there by a passing boat, then you have failed to plan far enough in advance.

A blast or two on the whistle to signal an overtaking boat of your intention to alter course to starboard or port should be used if there is any danger of a close quarters situation arising, and that signal should be initiated by the stand-on vessel.

"So in that situation, maintaining course AND speed requires a tack."

Sorry, but that makes no sense at all.
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Old 06-12-2011, 12:45   #174
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Thanks for the drawing RH I have been contemplating making one. In your drawing the overtaking is happening and the boats are overlapped. Sailboat is not allowed to tack. He can luff up and drift if he wants but he cant tack.
Luffing can be just as bad depending upon the distances; at least while tacking you have steerage and losing that in close proximity to another vessel (and the rocks) isn't going to be any good.

The vessel overtaking is responsible; if they can't overtake safely (regardless of the reason) than they need to wait until a time when they can. Addressing the thread starter, there is no regulation or custom that provides for smaller power vessels to move around at 20 knots and everything in their way to deal with it.

Quote:
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Sailboats not under power aren't required to sound maneuvering signals.
Fully agree, but I typically blast sound signals in a near collision situation. I've been in that exact position (in the drawing) several times and I'll give two short blasts while although inland should clearly indicate to the power vessel that I'm altering my course to port. If it's a professional operator (harbor cruise boat, etc) they instantly swing to port because they know what's about to happen.

And if it got down to a collision with a police investigation I'd like to show that I followed the rules, deviated from them only to avoid a collision, while the overtaking vessel essentially ignored their responsibility.
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Old 06-12-2011, 12:50   #175
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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According to the regs, your obligation is to maintain course and speed while being overtaken. To me, that means you try and time your tacks or jybes so as not to be cutting in front of a passing vessel.
The first rule (13a) concerning overtaking in colregs is pretty crystal clear:

Quote:
Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules [of Part B, Sections I and II / 4 through 18], any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
The responsibility is almost entirely that of the overtaking vessel with very limited exceptions. There is no "right" to overtake another vessel, it's an option that you are allowed to conduct if certain conditions are met. Approaching too close to a sailing vessel that is going to need to tack soon when it's pinned up against some rocks is no where near acceptable.
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Old 06-12-2011, 13:04   #176
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Sailboats not under power aren't required to sound maneuvering signals.
I stand corrected...but seems strange as it would alleviate the problem if they did sound/respond.
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Old 06-12-2011, 13:16   #177
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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I stand corrected...but seems strange as it would alleviate the problem if they did sound/respond.
Rule #2 addresses a lot of that. Basically stating that the point of colregs is reduce collisions first and foremost. If the actions you are taking (regardless of anything else) are not reducing the risk of a collision, you are at fault.

Quote:
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
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Old 06-12-2011, 13:25   #178
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Rule #2 addresses a lot of that. Basically stating that the point of colregs is reduce collisions first and foremost. If the actions you are taking (regardless of anything else) are not reducing the risk of a collision, you are at fault.
I know all that...just seems strange that a sailboat doesn't have to sound or respond to whistle signals...especially in a situation that would make sense considering this debate about it. While I think many sailors would respond or gladly agree on the radio...just seems strange it's not required as it's easy and clear and would certainly help without much effort.
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Old 06-12-2011, 14:13   #179
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

Ex Calif said,

"The courteous motor boater passes to stern but is not obligated to do so. He is obligated to pass safely as not to interfere with the boat holding course."

Around here, at least half of the power boaters will change course (sometimes in a vain attempt if I'm really sailing fast) to cross our bow.

Near Sucia Island in the San Juans on a brisk October day, a displacement hulled power boat changed course to try to cross our bow. He kept changing and changing, but we were close hauled doing about 12 knots. He basically drag raced us for nearly a mile before he gave up and resumed course.

And no, he wasn't rubbernecking or taking pictures.

Arghh.
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Old 06-12-2011, 14:14   #180
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I know all that...just seems strange that a sailboat doesn't have to sound or respond to whistle signals...especially in a situation that would make sense considering this debate about it. While I think many sailors would respond or gladly agree on the radio...just seems strange it's not required as it's easy and clear and would certainly help without much effort.
Guess many small sailboats may not have a wistle or horn. Would make sense to carry a small air horn if manouvering in channels.
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