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Old 05-12-2011, 23:37   #151
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

We all know that five or more short and rapid blasts is a danger signal used when the other vessel's intention is not understood. Haven't used that signal yet, but should have. (I merely made violent course changes instead.)
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:17   #152
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Agree with all you just said Ex-Calif, but want you to know I've been scolded for using the term "long" when the correct term is "prolonged."
I intentionally shortened the word as I felt my post was getting a little lengthy

God I just re-read my post - What a long winded a$$...

Drive the way ya'll wanna. I'll just lay on the horn an give ya'll a pro-longated blast if'n I needa passy'onby..
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Old 06-12-2011, 04:52   #153
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
-

edited for brevity...

it does the sailor is obligated to hold course and speed.
- The prudent powerboater if he cannot determine if the sailboater has recognized a passing situation exists and thinks a collision situation could exist "shall assume one does exist" and should offer two long and one short blast or 2 long and two short as appropriate.
- If he gets no L-S-L-S reply he should assume the sailboat is clueless and has no idea what those signals mean and act accordingly to avoid.

In that case were I a non-courteous and mean spirited power boater I might accelerate to full displacement speed so as to make those idjits spill their martinis.

Semi interesting side note about towing -


As he approached closer and passed astern he was better identified as a really fancy barge, where the pusher "plugged" into a recess at the back. It was clearly a tow, clearly not constrained or RAM and clearly gave this sailing vessel room.
The L-L-S or L-L-S-S passing signal in fairways or narrow channels is an international signal I'm pretty sure

and Tugs that plug into the back of barges could either be a tow (if tied together and could be RAM or at least have the option...if mechanically fastened then it's a composite unit and has to act just like any other power vessel.
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Old 06-12-2011, 06:28   #154
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Actually in our channel they are speed limited. There is also a traffic monitoring station run by the authorities.

In regards to rights of way in a channel. It appears that the most "simple" of regs gets subject to interpretation.

Am I in a channel? Maybe sometimes it is not clear but if there are poles on my left and right with green and red lights on them, especially leading into a marina, I am gonna call that a channel - Sausolito.

If there is a breakwater and a big pile of rocks on my left and a big pile of rocks on my right leading to a marina, Im gonna call that a channel - MDR

If there are poles on my left and poles on my right with with red and green lights on them leading up to a bridge span and beyond I am gonna call that a channel - SFO centrtal bay leading north.

If the chart says Pelican Channel. I am gonna call that a channel

If there is a 3 mile long island 1/2 mile across from the shore and 300+ meter ships pass this watereway, Im gonna call this a channel.

If you want a definition of "narrow" you aint gonna get it because narrow is relative.

Sausolito - everyone except the shallowest draft has to use the channel. If you decide to sail up or down this channel, I interpret the reg to mean you do not impede anyone. You do have a choice not to enter this channel under sail. Everyone else has to use the channel to get to and from home.

MDR - an exception becuase it has a sailing zone but I have sailed "beyond" the sailing zones with no traffic with the explicit understanding that I have no rights and would be an idiot and rude to impede a power boat.

SFO - An interesting one because there is plenty of navigable water outside this channel for any pleasure boat and most ferries and work boats. So common sense asks, "Why is there a channel?" - of course it is for ships to navigate under the bridge and up to benicia area. Logic tells me I can expect vessels Constrained by Draught to use the channel. In this case I would expect no rights over ships but becuase there is navigable water all around I would expect rights from ferries and other work boats not restricted in maneuver even if we were all in the channel..

The bad news is we can all interpret this as we wish. The apportionment of blame happens in court after the fibreglass is broken. However, here on this forum, as on the water, I would give way rather than try to convince someone who is unconvinceable.

Finally I would love someone to show me where vessels towing have special rights unless they are declaring RAM.

Here's what you said:

"Sausolito - everyone except the shallowest draft has to use the channel. If you decide to sail up or down this channel, I interpret the reg to mean you do not impede anyone."

If you are a power boat insisting that you have the right to overtake a sailing vessel, preventing that sailing vessel from performing a safe and timely tack ("zig zag") so that sailing vessel can remain safely in that channel -- YOU ARE IMPEDING THAT SAILING VESSEL.

So then you have to look at other regulations:

A powerboat has to yield to a sailing vessel.

The overtaking vessel has to yield to the vessel in front of it.

The overriding rule is AVOID A COLLISION.

If a sailboat tacks in front of you, they aren't "breaking in line." They're doing what a sailboat does in a narrow space with wind on the nose. They have to tack or run aground. If you prevent them from running aground and they have a camera, you'll find yourself paying for their tow or damages to their boat.

On the highway, the fastest car gets to pass the slower one. On the water, 'taint necessarily so.
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Old 06-12-2011, 06:30   #155
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Even sailboats are to give way to motorboats engaged in fishing (restricted in their maneuverability) such as this:


That's right. That's the basis of ALL those regulations regarding who yields: maneuverability. And if that fishing boat has nets out (shrimp nets, for instance), you'd better give it a wide berth.
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Old 06-12-2011, 06:35   #156
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Isn't the obligation of the stand on vessel to maintain course and speed while being overtaken? How does this requirement affect a sailboat tacking in front of an overtaking powerboat? I would think that the sailboat being overtaken would be obligated NOT to tack in front of the powerboat, even thought he has 'right of way'. If that means you luff up until he's passed, or communicate your intention to tack so he can pass on the other side, I think thats what you are required to do.

It is the obligation of the stand-on vessel (a term not used in the regs any more but we know what it means) to maintain course and speed WHILE AVOIDING AN ACCIDENT.

If the stand-on vessel is a sailboat under sail, any idiot can see that when they get near the edge of the channel they are going to HAVE to tack. That "give-way" vessel has been behind them for a while and knows that sailboat is tacking up the channel.

So in that situation, maintaining course AND speed requires a tack.

Where do you suggest this sailboat go instead of tacking? The only choice is "aground." You can't "heave to" in a channel. That does NOT stop all movement. The boat will then drift WITH THE WIND. With the wind on the nose that may be backwards, but more likely, the wind is only "close" toi the nose.

That means the boat will drift MORE SLOWLY into your path, and more unpredictably, or ..,. aground.

Apparently you are only concerned with going as fast as you can without regard for other boaters. I don't know what other conclusion to draw. But I guarantee you that after this conversation I will have an inexpensive video camera in my cockpit along with horn, flares, etc., and I WILL have the evidence I need if someone like you comes up behind me and decides he has the right of way just because he wants it.
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Old 06-12-2011, 06:37   #157
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by hummingway View Post
If the sailboat is already on a tack they maintain course, as far as is safe of course. The motor craft should pass to the stern. If the sailboat is already tacking when the motor vessel approaches the same thing applies.

To be on a tack and tacking aren't the same thing and it's important to be clear about that. If a sailing vessel is on a tack and a motor vessel is passing by her stern the sailor needs to assess whether tacking at that time while interfere with the motor vessel. It is a judgement call and the operator or the motor vessel should make an effort to pass in a manner that doesn't creat a situation where it's a problem, where possible.

Under most conditions it's not going to happen really quickly and the operator of the MV should be able to chart a course that isn't going to greatly inconvenience them when they see someone begin the maneuver. The operator of the SV should be able to plan tacking at a time when it's also not going to cause problems.
Of course. you wait ten seconds for the sailboat to tack. Then that boat is out of the way and you pass on the other side.

It's so simple and it's just no big deal. That's why I'm going to put a video camera in my cockpit from now on, because that will prove that the motor boat caused whatever problem resulted from not being willing, as the overtaking boat, to wait ten seconds.
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Old 06-12-2011, 06:42   #158
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

"- This wise powerboater should anticipate the movements of sailboats but is not obligated to do so in a passing situation
- The sailboat being passed is obligated to hold course and speed and the powerboater has a right to expect that
- Sailboater should plan his tack so he is not changing course while being passed. If he finds himself pinned he may choose to hail the powerboater for room or luff up until passed
- Bad planning on the sailors part should not result in an "emergency" for the passing boat"

I couldn't possibly answer all your comments, but you said "learn the rules" -- I'm sorry but you need to with some flexibility. You can latch on to one you think allows you to risk either a collision or to force another vessel to do something that harms it, but you'd be wrong.

You MUST anticipate the actions of ALL the boats around you, and in a channel, if you've seen that sailboat zig-zagging and can't figure out why, you're too dumb to be on the water.

But you've demonstrated that you know -- you just don't like it, so you're trying to justify ignoring the very real needs of the sailboat in front of you. A sailboat can't always just hold the course you wish it would hold. If the wind is on or near the nose, that sailboat HAS to "zig zag" across the channel.

YOU can predict that and choose to pass wisely, or you can stubbornly make a huge problem for that sailboat -- one that could actually endanger the boat.

It's your choice and your karma.
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Old 06-12-2011, 06:45   #159
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Here here
How narrow is the channel? If there's a spinnaker out on port and a genny out on starboard, is there room for other boats? is it safe for them to run downwind risking a gybe in a narrow channel?

I don't believe him, but it's only been mentioned once. What's been pounded over is that that darned sailboat shouldn't be zig-zagging when he wants to pass.
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Old 06-12-2011, 07:03   #160
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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I like to think that I'm a polite power boater. I typically cruise my 42' power boat at 21 knots. I have a sizable wake at this speed. So... How do you want me to pass you when I'm coming up behind you and be specific about speed differentials and distance and how do you want me to pass you when we're heading in opposite directions (again, be specific).
I could care less what speed you go as long as you follow the rules of the road and/or marina; like indicating which side your passing (with horn) and realize a sailboat under power has the right of way when in front of you.
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Old 06-12-2011, 07:07   #161
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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That's right. That's the basis of ALL those regulations regarding who yields: maneuverability. And if that fishing boat has nets out (shrimp nets, for instance), you'd better give it a wide berth.
Not if it's fishing a restricted zone; like a navigable channel. I have no problem (and have done so) calling the local gendarme on fishing boats not following the rules.
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Old 06-12-2011, 07:53   #162
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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I could care less what speed you go as long as you follow the rules of the road and/or marina; like indicating which side your passing (with horn) and realize a sailboat under power has the right of way when in front of you.

Sure. It's my job as the sailboat in front of you to be ready to turn into your wake. IF you know at what speed your wake reduces and you can do it, that's great.

If you can see that I have to tack ("narrow" channel), please don't force me aground -- please follow the rules governing an overtaking boat and give me a chance to get out of your way without endangering your boat.
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Old 06-12-2011, 07:53   #163
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Not if it's fishing a restricted zone; like a navigable channel. I have no problem (and have done so) calling the local gendarme on fishing boats not following the rules.
I kinda stopped after I read this from those posts...

"It is the obligation of the stand-on vessel (a term not used in the regs any more but we know what it means) to maintain course and speed WHILE AVOIDING AN ACCIDENT."

I'm not sure where the "new" rules are...all the ones I have and read on line still use the term "stand on" "give way"...
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Old 06-12-2011, 07:55   #164
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Re: How Do You Like Being Overtaken by a Power Boat ?

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Not if it's fishing a restricted zone; like a navigable channel. I have no problem (and have done so) calling the local gendarme on fishing boats not following the rules.

My statement covers fishing boats. I said that it's about maneuverability, and it is: a working fishing boat has dramatically reduced maneuverability, and the sailboat MUST sail SAFELY around it. Fishing boats are not supposed to fish in a channel, so being a fishing boat doesn't apply in a channel. If my sailboat were blocked by a boat fishing in the channel (commercial or private) I would call Fish & Wildlife.
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Old 06-12-2011, 08:41   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Here's what you said:

"Sausolito - everyone except the shallowest draft has to use the channel. If you decide to sail up or down this channel, I interpret the reg to mean you do not impede anyone."

If you are a power boat insisting that you have the right to overtake a sailing vessel, preventing that sailing vessel from performing a safe and timely tack ("zig zag") so that sailing vessel can remain safely in that channel -- YOU ARE IMPEDING THAT SAILING VESSEL.

So then you have to look at other regulations:

A powerboat has to yield to a sailing vessel.

The overtaking vessel has to yield to the vessel in front of it.

The overriding rule is AVOID A COLLISION.

If a sailboat tacks in front of you, they aren't "breaking in line." They're doing what a sailboat does in a narrow space with wind on the nose. They have to tack or run aground. If you prevent them from running aground and they have a camera, you'll find yourself paying for their tow or damages to their boat.

On the highway, the fastest car gets to pass the slower one. On the water, 'taint necessarily so.
So you are saying that under 9(b) the powerboat, being under 20m is also burdened not to impede the sailboat who has to use the channel. Therefore they have equal rights and we have to go back to passing situation regs?

I disagree that the power boat is impeding the sailboat. The sail boat did not hold course and speed while being overtaken. It tacked. By its action it impeded the powerboat who had to slow down to avoid a collision.

The sailboat had options not to sail in the channel. What if the channel we really full of two way traffic? It would be mayhem. Have you looked at this channel on a chart? It is also California. If you sailed this channel at "rush" hour forget colregs, someone would likely gat your a&&.

The idea that everyone is supposed to intuitively know what you are gonna do is ludicrous. That is no way to separate trafffic. For all I know you could be leaving the channel or had a fight with your wife and decided to crash the boat. I'm not supposed to guess. The regs say if you are being overtaken you hold course and speed. That's what I expect you to do. How you handle your boat is your problem.

BTW - based on the discussion. Probably aren't talking a passing situation. It is more likely a crossing situation that we are describing. Anyone know the (regulatory) difference?

Final point. You seem to be getting riled up butI am not trying to ruffle your feathers and this is not a powerboater vs. sailor thing. I am a sailor for Pete's sake not s powerboater.
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