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Old 16-09-2013, 21:32   #61
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Re: How do you feel about FOG?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
As much as I love my electronics I'd give them up every foggy day if it would keep the clowns off the water, when foggy. Hell I'd go back to navigating by depth & compass, like I did when I fished, if it would keep them tied to a dock in the fog... The problem in Maine, of plotter guided fog monkeys, is reaching epic proportions and getting dangerous. It is really, really scary to see the speed some of these knuckle heads will do in 50-100 feet of vis... But hey they know where THEY are thanks to the "Garmins" they just don't know where YOU are...........
Who are these knuckle heads of which you speak? I can count the number of dim whited, Carver driving, beer swilling, tit heads on one hand in my home waters. Maine is amazingly void of that kind of boater, Boston is another story. And don't get me started about lobster men/women. I am friends with quite a few of them and they are all degenerates!
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Old 16-09-2013, 22:44   #62
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Carver drivers?! Hey, I resemble that remark.
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Old 17-09-2013, 05:40   #63
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Re: How do you feel about FOG?

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Who are these knuckle heads of which you speak? I can count the number of dim whited, Carver driving, beer swilling, tit heads on one hand in my home waters. Maine is amazingly void of that kind of boater, Boston is another story. And don't get me started about lobster men/women. I am friends with quite a few of them and they are all degenerates!
This is not just limited to Sea Ray's and Carvers, of which there are plenty in Casco Bay thanks to Port Harbor Marine being a HUGE dealer for both. We see it with the "fast trawler" crowd and they can often be seen doing 14 - 20+ knots in pea soup. The center console fishing boats can often be seen at upwards of 30 knots in pea soup. Back Cove's, Sabreline's, Hinkley Picknic boats, Grady White's, Robalo's, Mako's, Boston Whalers etc. etc.. Not limited to any one group but these speeds were never present 20+ years ago in the pea soup that I can recall. It seems, IMHO, the advent of the plotter has brought on this sheer stupidity... Have these folks never sat down and calculated closing speeds in 100, 200, 300, 400 etc. feet of visibility? I think they would be SHOCKED to learn how fast your reaction times need to be, at those visibility ranges, when doing 20-30 knots.

Earlier this summer I watched the local Back Cove dealer commissioning a new/used boat for a customer. He was full of questions because this was, apparently, his first boat. I was working on the boat next door over hearing the questions..

About three weeks later, in 200 feet of vis, a target on my radar pops out of the fog. Hails to him on VHF 16 and the other customary channels failed. We had been under sail but when I saw this target I fired up the motor and veered off. I am fairly certain he was on AP with a pre-plotted course.. When he went by he had to be doing 20 knots or more, easily... No running lights, no fog signals, no VHF and a brand new to him boat which was apparently his first.

It was a few moments later when it dawned on me that it was Mr. Newbie from a few weeks before..... Pretty impressive to learn fog navigation, a new boat, new plotter and new radar and all the other things that go along with it so fast that he could safely travel at 20+ knots in 200 feet of vis.... Tongue firmly implanted in cheek on "safely"...
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Old 17-09-2013, 06:21   #64
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Re: How do you feel about FOG?

Maine has no monopoly on idiots in the fog. I was off of St Augustine Fl a couple of years ago in less than 100 ft visibility waiting for the fog to lift before coming in the inlet. If you know St Ausutine you know that the inlet is not plotted on the charts because the channel changed so much. It is not an inlet one should run blind. It was shortly before sun rise when suddenly high speed boats started coming out of the inlet. I was sounding fog signals on my horn, but I'm sure no one was able to hear them over the roar of their multihundred HP engines driving them at 30 or 40 knots. Several came within 50 feet of me and I'm sure never knew I was there because they never looked up from their chart plotter. I was making Securite calls on my radio and had a radar reflector up as well. I know my reflector works well because I've been a few miles away from a friend with radar and he says I was a good target. I doubt they could even hear the radio if they even had it on. I am truely amazed that these idiots have not had a darwin moment. So fair warning, stay away from Fl inlets in the fog. Next time instead of standing off a couple of hundred yards from the sea buoy, I'll stay a couple of miles up the coast. I am also amazed by how many large vessels run without their AIS on. I was coming out of the Cape Cod Canal a couple of days ago in good visibility behind a tug and barge showing up quite well on AIS. As I exited there was another tug and barge combo with one pusher tug and one on the side. No AIS on either of the tugs, and this was about a 250 ft fuel barge. So don't count on AIS in the fog you could end up as bow candy on a big ship.
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Old 17-09-2013, 06:38   #65
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Re: How do you feel about FOG?

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Sure they do! They have AIS, don't they?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry when in contemporary discussions of the most valuable navigation gear AIS is apt to get chosen first.....even over compass, fathometer, charts, GPS, radar, or even the venerable Mark One Eyeball.

Guess we're just old fuddy-duddies from a bygone era who can't seem to get with the program these days :-)

Bill
AIS, IMHO, is an adjunct to radar and not a replacement. Sadly many boaters do think it is a replacement.. Why do I feel this way...?

Because I see the sort of thing, in the video below, all the time...... Imagine if this was pea soup fog and your only tool for seeing other vessels was AIS?

First you'd miss 95% of the boats on the Maine coast that don't TX AIS, and second, they are NOT always where the AIS shows them to be.

Watch the AIS target closing on our STBD bow, now watch it jump to where the sailboat is in "reality". I turn the camera to show it....

Also keep in mind that when I noticed this discrepancy, which is very common, that I had plenty of time to fire up the camera and make a video of it..... Doh'..... This sailboat was a LONG wat from where it was showing on AIS.. What if that was your only tool and you were in pea soup...?

AIS - Imagine If This Was Pea Soup Fog..... - YouTube
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Old 17-09-2013, 07:28   #66
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Talking Re: How do you feel about FOG?

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Hey Todd,
I thought you knew how to navigate by instrument? But I guess there aren't any rocks, or boats in the clouds.
Well, your correct but marine Nav aids and weather don't hold a candle to aviation tools. The ferries were the worst hazard. Turns out they actually ran a sailboat down over by the Orcas ferry dock.
Curious how the trip down the coast went...you have not said...figured you were busy.

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Old 18-09-2013, 13:38   #67
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Re: How do you feel about FOG?

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Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper View Post
Well, your correct but marine Nav aids and weather don't hold a candle to aviation tools. The ferries were the worst hazard. Turns out they actually ran a sailboat down over by the Orcas ferry dock.
Curious how the trip down the coast went...you have not said...figured you were busy.

Todd
Yep! That's why I bought an AIS and Radar before heading out. Although the Garmin MFD/radar crapped out half way thru the trip. Hit some fog outside of SF but it wasn't thick enough to cause a problem.

Here's the trip details.>>> Ugly Duckling Arrives in S. F. Sept 10
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Old 18-09-2013, 13:46   #68
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Yep! That's why I bought an AIS and Radar before heading out. Although the Garmin MFD/radar crapped out half way thru the trip. Hit some fog outside of SF but it wasn't thick enough to cause a problem.

Here's the trip details.>>> Ugly Duckling Arrives in S. F. Sept 10
Great, I will read it.
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Old 18-09-2013, 14:32   #69
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Re: How do you feel about FOG?

Yes it's been really foggy in the San Juans this last week. Islands not showing up until closer than 50 feet. Sometimes not lifting till way after noon or hanging on in the main channels (shipping lanes). Even with radar it's best to skirt the shore because of the yahoos out there not following protocall. You can see them on radar but nary a horn blowing but me and the ferries.

The Fisher 25 that was 'run over' by the ferry was not in fog. The news pictures taken from the ferry verify that. It went down in under a half hour. It is in a junction of passageways, the ferry was heading west and most of the traffic would be ahead or coming out of the south. Apparently the sailboat came out of the northeast on a converging path. In theory being to starboard had right of way. Both the sailor and the ferry were probably at fault. A ferry is big and white, goes fast but on a known scheduled track. I'm based out of Lopez where the ferry had last stopped and often there are multiple warning blasts from the ferry. In this case it was silent.

ps, I like the fog, it's a mysterious adventure close to home.
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Old 18-09-2013, 16:00   #70
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Re: How do you feel about FOG?

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Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
Maine has no monopoly on idiots in the fog. I was off of St Augustine Fl a couple of years ago in less than 100 ft visibility waiting for the fog to lift before coming in the inlet. If you know St Ausutine you know that the inlet is not plotted on the charts because the channel changed so much. It is not an inlet one should run blind. It was shortly before sun rise when suddenly high speed boats started coming out of the inlet. I was sounding fog signals on my horn, but I'm sure no one was able to hear them over the roar of their multihundred HP engines driving them at 30 or 40 knots. Several came within 50 feet of me and I'm sure never knew I was there because they never looked up from their chart plotter. I was making Securite calls on my radio and had a radar reflector up as well. I know my reflector works well because I've been a few miles away from a friend with radar and he says I was a good target. I doubt they could even hear the radio if they even had it on. I am truely amazed that these idiots have not had a darwin moment. So fair warning, stay away from Fl inlets in the fog. Next time instead of standing off a couple of hundred yards from the sea buoy, I'll stay a couple of miles up the coast. I am also amazed by how many large vessels run without their AIS on. I was coming out of the Cape Cod Canal a couple of days ago in good visibility behind a tug and barge showing up quite well on AIS. As I exited there was another tug and barge combo with one pusher tug and one on the side. No AIS on either of the tugs, and this was about a 250 ft fuel barge. So don't count on AIS in the fog you could end up as bow candy on a big ship.

That's one reason I fear the fog here. We don't get that much of it, and people don't know what to do in it.
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Old 18-09-2013, 16:21   #71
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Re: How do you feel about FOG?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
AIS, IMHO, is an adjunct to radar and not a replacement. Sadly many boaters do think it is a replacement.. Why do I feel this way...?

Because I see the sort of thing, in the video below, all the time...... Imagine if this was pea soup fog and your only tool for seeing other vessels was AIS?

First you'd miss 95% of the boats on the Maine coast that don't TX AIS, and second, they are NOT always where the AIS shows them to be.

Watch the AIS target closing on our STBD bow, now watch it jump to where the sailboat is in "reality". I turn the camera to show it....

Also keep in mind that when I noticed this discrepancy, which is very common, that I had plenty of time to fire up the camera and make a video of it..... Doh'..... This sailboat was a LONG wat from where it was showing on AIS.. What if that was your only tool and you were in pea soup...?

AIS - Imagine If This Was Pea Soup Fog..... - YouTube
Agreed, very rarely does a new nav aid replace another nav aid. The more nav aids you have, the better.
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Old 18-09-2013, 16:41   #72
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Re: How do you feel about FOG?

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Agreed, very rarely does a new nav aid replace another nav aid. The more nav aids you have, the better.
At some point there is a need for more than one in the pilothouse/helm to navigate. Head-down looking at displays reduces eyes watching what's happening outside.

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Old 18-09-2013, 17:58   #73
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Worst experience. Block island to New York. Back in loran days. Fog was supposed to burn off. It didn't. Wind never filled in. Weather forecast was just wrong. Imagine that. Single handed running hour after hour buoy to buoy. Pea soup hardly see the bow. Nearly took out the sprit on one Nun. Loran or me didn't correct the stations and it went a tad bonker. I'm trying to figure out if the compass is whacky or loran. I'm getting friggin tired fatigued. I go with the compass. Buts it is slow. Motor sounds good but I'm listening very attentive. The pitch changes or did it? No it's just the way I tilted my head. Relax the depth sounder agrees with my position. I can trust that. I think I wore the paper out with divider pricks and notes. Thought about anchoring but its very exposed so on I went. Somehow got up into dead horse bay. Got just off the channel and through the hook.
Later with a radar working and the loran calibrated I could sneak into tiny harbors and enjoy. But never again outside New York would I try that without the stuff I have today. Ais GPS radar etc.... What the hell was I thinking.
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Old 19-09-2013, 01:41   #74
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Re: How do you feel about FOG?

Hi,

I live and sail in Japan, doing mostly weekend type sailing (in comparison to the awe-inspiring old salts around here, I am but a bathtub skipper).

For some friends, I recently wrote a long spiel about a (very) short cruise involving a fog scare and even scarier iPhone death.

If interested (brace yourself), the file can be downloaded here:

https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D6582985_7603523_65214753
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Old 19-09-2013, 04:29   #75
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Re: How do you feel about FOG?

I used to hate fog with a vengeance. Sailing in some of the busiest waters in the world, English Channel and the North Sea it wasn't much fun in boat with no radar, no AIS and only an outboard.

Then a trip along Nova Scotia when I reckon we saw about 5% of the coastline. Going in and out of harbours flying by wire became the norm. Electronics slew the fog monster.
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