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Old 14-01-2015, 12:13   #106
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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Which builders are using epoxy resins?? Tartan was and I know Hanse did as an option but I don't know if thats still available.
No Hanse is not using it anymore, not even as an option. Without talking about all, just about mass produced boats and just at the first glance, as an option Salona, Dehler (that belongs to Hanse), Elan and I believe Azuree in all boats. By the way you can join to that list of relatively inexpensive and well built boats the Azuree. The 46 is a sweet boat, the 33 a heel of a boat and there are many sailors waiting for the new Azuree 40 that will appear shortly. Waukiez also uses them at least in some boats (Vinylester). There are certainly much more.

The Azurre 46 is probably the boat that impresses me more in what regards what is offered regarding performance, cruising comfort, built quality and price.

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Old 14-01-2015, 14:33   #107
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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No Hanse is not using it anymore, not even as an option. Without talking about all, just about mass produced boats and just at the first glance, as an option Salona, Dehler (that belongs to Hanse), Elan and I believe Azuree in all boats. By the way you can join to that list of relatively inexpensive and well built boats the Azuree. The 46 is a sweet boat, the 33 a heel of a boat and there are many sailors waiting for the new Azuree 40 that will appear shortly. Waukiez also uses them at least in some boats (Vinylester). There are certainly much more.

The Azurre 46 is probably the boat that impresses me more in what regards what is offered regarding performance, cruising comfort, built quality and price.

Cool boat for sure, lots of nice features but set up more for a weekender type sailor, which is of course the market. looking for something that has more accessible storage.
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Old 14-01-2015, 15:00   #108
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

Besides sailing experience you educate yourself by reading books such as Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of Offshore Yachts.
http://www.amazon.com/Desirable-Unde.../dp/0393033112
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Old 14-01-2015, 15:43   #109
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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Cool boat for sure, lots of nice features but set up more for a weekender type sailor, which is of course the market. looking for something that has more accessible storage.
That's ridiculous: Weekend cruising? A smaller Azuree 40 crossed the Atlantic the ARC (doing a hell of a passage) and his now cruising on the Caribbean like you. A Xp44, that is a boat with less storage space than this boat, is starting with the World ARC Rally a circumnavigation.

You know, a boat to be a good option offshore and for cruising don't have to be ugly or slow Putting labels on boats according to your personal sailing and cruising preferences, ignoring all others, makes no sense at all and is a form of egocentrism: What is good for me should be good for everybody else and what suits others are just ill informed choices
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Old 14-01-2015, 15:54   #110
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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That's ridiculous: Weekend cruising? A smaller Azuree 40 crossed the Atlantic the ARC (doing a hell of a passage) and his now cruising on the Caribbean like you. A Xp44, that is a boat with less storage space than this boat, is starting with the World ARC Rally a circumnavigation.

You know, a boat to be a good option offshore and for cruising don't have to be ugly or slow Putting labels on boats according to your personal sailing and cruising preferences, ignoring all others, makes no sense at all and is a form of egocentrism: What is good for me should be good for everybody else and what suits others are just ill informed choices
Not sure where you are coming from?? I simply looked at the video, saw a cool boat but noticed that the interior feeling of space is maximized by moving the furniture very close to the hull which tells me that the long term storage is not that great. I have no doubts it is used on crossings and cruising but I simply like a boat that has more usable storage. Yes you can store stuff under bunks and make shelves in the cockpit lockers etc. but it is not like a boat that is actually designed for better storage. Thats my opinion and whether you like it or not has nothing to do with the boat. You seem to feel that me critiquing a boat somehow is a situation that must be taken personally. I'm not happy with the storage on our present boat and if I can share that with you try not to get so upset.
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Old 14-01-2015, 16:28   #111
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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Not sure where you are coming from?? I simply looked at the video, saw a cool boat but noticed that the interior feeling of space is maximized by moving the furniture very close to the hull which tells me that the long term storage is not that great. I have no doubts it is used on crossings and cruising but I simply like a boat that has more usable storage. Yes you can store stuff under bunks and make shelves in the cockpit lockers etc. but it is not like a boat that is actually designed for better storage. Thats my opinion and whether you like it or not has nothing to do with the boat. You seem to feel that me critiquing a boat somehow is a situation that must be taken personally. I'm not happy with the storage on our present boat and if I can share that with you try not to get so upset.
No, your opinion is fine, if it is your opinion in what regard what is fit for you but when you say: "but set up more for a weekender type sailor, which is of course the market" you are not talking about what is fit for you but are generalizing. I did not post it as a cruiser suited for you (I know that it is not. it is too fast:biggrin) but as "the boat that impresses me more in what regards what is offered regarding performance, cruising comfort, built quality and price".

Besides how can you know what is the storage capacity of the boat by a movie that does not show that? I have been inside the boat and can tell you that it is quite considerable, having a huge storage space under the cockpit deck and two big cockpit lookers below the settees in the cockpit.

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Old 14-01-2015, 18:31   #112
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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No, your opinion is fine, if it is your opinion in what regard what is fit for you but when you say: "but set up more for a weekender type sailor, which is of course the market" you are not talking about what is fit for you but are generalizing. I did not post it as a cruiser suited for you (I know that it is not. it is too fast:biggrin) but as "the boat that impresses me more in what regards what is offered regarding performance, cruising comfort, built quality and price".

Besides how can you know what is the storage capacity of the boat by a movie that does not show that? I have been inside the boat and can tell you that it is quite considerable, having a huge storage space under the cockpit deck and two big cockpit lookers below the settees in the cockpit.

Lets not get into a pissing match over a boat neither of us is going to own. I have drawn and read floor plans all my life and I can assure you that this boat does not have the type of storage a real long term cruiser would like and as I said my present boat doesn't either but I can recognize it when I see it. Its a cool boat and it is not aimed at the long term cruiser and why would it be as thats a small market. Nice boat, good sized rig, nice lines ok but not great storage. It costs a lot of money for a builder to really build in useful storage. These days the bilges are flat so the tankage is all under berths and settees, you want to add a watermaker a bowthruster and maybe a genset so a lot of the forward and rear storage gets used to allow you to service this stuff. Now you want to load it up with tools and spares plus all the toys everyone has these days and on top of that all your personal belongings and your wife's personal belongings and a couple of months worth of food plus a large dingy and motor, did I mention dive gear for two? Extra anchors and rode plus your sails, well at least a spinnaker and maybe a storm jib and a drogue. It is your house and other than what you have stored at your land base all your wordly belongings are on board...cool boat, tight on good storage!!
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Old 14-01-2015, 18:37   #113
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

As an engineer I deal with fact not opinion.

A survey from a reputable surveyor is a good place to start. In fact a formal survey is often a requirement for insurance and marina berthing.

As an engineer with 3 trades and most of the skills I commissioned a survey even though I completed my own far more thorough survey.

I'd also add a sea trial, engine and transmission oil analysis and any subsystem tests you think are necessary.

You wont find a database of history or issues. It doesn't exist and many yachts were only made in small numbers.

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Old 15-01-2015, 09:54   #114
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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Lets not get into a pissing match over a boat neither of us is going to own. I have drawn and read floor plans all my life and I can assure you that this boat does not have the type of storage a real long term cruiser would like and as I said my present boat doesn't either but I can recognize it when I see it. Its a cool boat and it is not aimed at the long term cruiser and why would it be as thats a small market. Nice boat, good sized rig, nice lines ok but not great storage. It costs a lot of money for a builder to really build in useful storage. These days the bilges are flat so the tankage is all under berths and settees, you want to add a watermaker a bowthruster and maybe a genset so a lot of the forward and rear storage gets used to allow you to service this stuff. Now you want to load it up with tools and spares plus all the toys everyone has these days and on top of that all your personal belongings and your wife's personal belongings and a couple of months worth of food plus a large dingy and motor, did I mention dive gear for two? Extra anchors and rode plus your sails, well at least a spinnaker and maybe a storm jib and a drogue. It is your house and other than what you have stored at your land base all your wordly belongings are on board...cool boat, tight on good storage!!
It is not a pissing contest but I believe that you associate long range cruising with what you do, that is long range cruising and living permanentely on a boat carrying all your personal belongings. Most that do long range cruising don't live permanently on a boat even most of the ones that circumnavigate have an house where they are going to return to, where are the most part of their belongings.

Unless one lives in a very zen way the personal belongings one is attached too and constitute part of his live memories are considerable as are very different the needs of storage on a boat to carry all that or to live, even if for years on a boat, but having all personal objects stored at a home.

What seems to me is that you look at the storage of a boat not regarding the stuff that is needed for long range cruising but regarding the stuff one needs to carry if one lives permanently on a boat. Those are two different situations.

Those are two different situations in what regards load. The ones that live permanently on a boat are a minority regarding the ones that do long range cruising. Doing long range cruising does not imply that they are always doing long range cruising while the ones that live permanently on a boat, live permanently on a boat.

Regarding Monohulls suited to do that in what regards storage space the best I know off is the Sense series. However on a situation like yours i would much prefer having a boat like the Azuree 46 adapted at the factory, transforming one of the back cabins on a true storage space/workshop than sailing on a boat like a Sense. Do you have noticed how fine are the Azuree bow and frontal sections?

Sense 46:
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Old 15-01-2015, 10:27   #115
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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Any event that has a fixed start date (no picking the good weather window), open ocean sailing (no easy escape to shore if the weather kicks up) and several hundreds of miles in length can provide good data as to the durability, build quality and/or seaworthiness of the boat. And when the weather really tests the fleet, the data can be even better. If over time you see a trend, it's a pretty good indication the data is reliable.
I think you need a looong time frame and considerable data set for this to be valid. There are too many variables and too few races for there to be much data integrity.

First of all, you have no knowledge of how the boat has been modified. If the racers are serious, then the boat is stripped of every item that the PHRF rules will allow. It may have been modified, had cracks repaired, etc. It's driven hard, put away wet, and pretty much maintained just for speed and basic integrity. It's destined to a life of racing since they don't have much future as cruising boats.

Honestly among ocean racers, when someone looks at a boat and says "That would be a good boat for X race." They are not thinking about durability and seaworthiness, they're thinking about how well the boat can be sailed to its rating and whether it has the right rigging and gear.

On the other end of the spectrum you have casual racers who are just crossing it off their bucket list. One and done. Their participation tells you nothing other than the confidence of the captain and the fact that their boat met the various stability and safety requirements of the race.

I know it's tempting to think that there's some valuable data in there, but it's sketchy at best. OTOH, if you look at the data and see boats that are disproportionately represented among those that had problems, then I think you have a reasonable list of what to avoid.
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Old 15-01-2015, 10:28   #116
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

Hum.. statistical analysis vs actual measurement. Ok so what? Enumerating any nr. Of any brand in a race roster adds nothing to my knowledge, really.

At least, it sounded to me that "23" was being shown as a great nr. Vs 5 or 1 or.... zero! :-) Of course 23 was the top brand representation, by the largest brand around... so what? Sorry.

Back to a more interesting topic, seaworthiness is what makes you clean, happy, fancy free and with no damage, given the circumstances!
Yes, it is a highly subjective feeling, unless you have real damage, failures, etc.

I see many modern boats of good reputation with brocken halyards, helms, pumps,... etc. Even in cruising conditions.
I am fitting my boat anew, and must say that all counts

Design
Materials
Execution
+ boat sailing. Also sailing can be more or less seaworthy

It all comes back to the concept that everyone believes to be and to have seaworthiness on hands. Great :-)
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Old 15-01-2015, 10:45   #117
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

Illingworth and Chichester quarreled during and after the design/construction
If i am correct, sailor wanted a shorter easier boat. He moaned high heel angles, wet deck, too large, tiring.

Oh hell! He also asked to beat a speed record! He did!

GM IV sailed fantastically fast by the time under solo-sailing, w minor damages.

I think C. Changed ballast and add a profile added (on stern?) which made it... better?
Relationship soured......

Whatever is the overall judgement, the boat proved to be a very good one, reliable, fast, w minor breaks.
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Old 15-01-2015, 10:46   #118
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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Another thing that came to mind was getting pictures of the construction process of a boat...
This is certainly helpful if you're having a new boat built..even better if you actually visit the factory. I know quite a few people who have done so and changed their minds after what they saw.

But it's one data point, and its limited by the fact that it's one thing to use a particular method and it's another thing entirely to do it well. Vacuum bagging is a technological advance but it's pretty easy to screw it up.

I worked in the Seafarer plant when I was a teenager. One visit to the plant would convince any knowledgeable boat buyer that they should look elsewhere, just on construction method alone. What they did not see was the corners that were cut during the actual process for the sake of controlling costs. Screwed up a particular task? Just get it done, move on, get her out the door. Small wonder there are so few Seafarer boats still around.

Quality of workmanship is a fluid thing that can vary within a given line of boats from year to year based on what yard they were built in (many boats companies don't own a yard, they just contract out construction). And it varies even more granularly by who showed up to work that day.

I think with an older boat reputation is king. It's based on the real-world experience of the people who actually sailed and maintained the boats after they left the factory, which is where the rubber meets the road. For a given boat it can help you narrow down what years were good and what years were bad, and that's about the best you can do.
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Old 15-01-2015, 11:37   #119
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
As an engineer I deal with fact not opinion.

A survey from a reputable surveyor is a good place to start. In fact a formal survey is often a requirement for insurance and marina berthing.

As an engineer with 3 trades and most of the skills I commissioned a survey even though I completed my own far more thorough survey.

I'd also add a sea trial, engine and transmission oil analysis and any subsystem tests you think are necessary.

You wont find a database of history or issues. It doesn't exist and many yachts were only made in small numbers.
The fact part is often the part that's hardest to obtain. There's no shortage, however, of opinions.

The survey, sea trial, etc are certainly an important part of the fact acquiring process but they come only after an offer. I was looking at compiling whatever facts one could find during the "whittling down the potential boats" process. I've thrown two out there that I feel could provide some facts, depending on what is compiled and how you analyze that. But that is by no means enough.

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I think you need a looong time frame and considerable data set for this to be valid. There are too many variables and too few races for there to be much data integrity.

First of all, you have no knowledge of how the boat has been modified. If the racers are serious, then the boat is stripped of every item that the PHRF rules will allow. It may have been modified, had cracks repaired, etc. It's driven hard, put away wet, and pretty much maintained just for speed and basic integrity. It's destined to a life of racing since they don't have much future as cruising boats.

Honestly among ocean racers, when someone looks at a boat and says "That would be a good boat for X race." They are not thinking about durability and seaworthiness, they're thinking about how well the boat can be sailed to its rating and whether it has the right rigging and gear.

On the other end of the spectrum you have casual racers who are just crossing it off their bucket list. One and done. Their participation tells you nothing other than the confidence of the captain and the fact that their boat met the various stability and safety requirements of the race.

I know it's tempting to think that there's some valuable data in there, but it's sketchy at best. OTOH, if you look at the data and see boats that are disproportionately represented among those that had problems, then I think you have a reasonable list of what to avoid.
I completely agree you need to know more and I have stated the reasons I feel races and rallies could provide one with useful knowledge but it's just one tiny element.

There's nothing I have offered that I could take and run with it. The more you know, the better your decisions will be. I don't believe you can over think this, not when you're making a 6-figure purchase.

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Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
This is certainly helpful if you're having a new boat built..even better if you actually visit the factory. I know quite a few people who have done so and changed their minds after what they saw.

But it's one data point, and its limited by the fact that it's one thing to use a particular method and it's another thing entirely to do it well. Vacuum bagging is a technological advance but it's pretty easy to screw it up.

I worked in the Seafarer plant when I was a teenager. One visit to the plant would convince any knowledgeable boat buyer that they should look elsewhere, just on construction method alone. What they did not see was the corners that were cut during the actual process for the sake of controlling costs. Screwed up a particular task? Just get it done, move on, get her out the door. Small wonder there are so few Seafarer boats still around.

Quality of workmanship is a fluid thing that can vary within a given line of boats from year to year based on what yard they were built in (many boats companies don't own a yard, they just contract out construction). And it varies even more granularly by who showed up to work that day.

I think with an older boat reputation is king. It's based on the real-world experience of the people who actually sailed and maintained the boats after they left the factory, which is where the rubber meets the road. For a given boat it can help you narrow down what years were good and what years were bad, and that's about the best you can do.
The pictures or videos, if you can find them, will tell you how the manufacturer built boats at that particular time. I think it's safe to assume you can go 2-3 years on either side of that date and use say that's how they built them in that time period.

Now, if you find something you know is cutting corners, doesn't that tell you something about the manufacturer? If you're buying a dock queen, who cares, as long as it floats? But if you're going to be finding yourself encountering some rough weather, that shortcut may be an issue for you. And that may cross that manufacturer off your list.

As far as older boats, I couldn't agree more, provided they have actually seen the type of weather you plan on putting your boat through and that data is available.

In the end, if you want to know what you're buying, you have your work cut out for you.
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Old 15-01-2015, 12:17   #120
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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you want to add a watermaker a bowthruster and maybe a genset so a lot of the forward and rear storage gets used to allow you to service this stuff. Now you want to load it up with tools and spares plus all the toys everyone has these days and on top of that all your personal belongings and your wife's personal belongings and a couple of months worth of food plus a large dingy and motor, did I mention dive gear for two? Extra anchors and rode plus your sails, well at least a spinnaker and maybe a storm jib and a drogue. It is your house and other than what you have stored at your land base all your wordly belongings are on board...cool boat, tight on good storage!!
I think you need a mobo , or a cruise liner, or maybe a new wife !.
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