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Old 09-01-2015, 13:59   #61
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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Originally Posted by Julie Mor View Post
My dad did that. Had the boat 23 years, until the day he died. Never once thought about buying another.
I said rare not impossible. I came close to death 25 years back, so I tend to move a little quicker on things. Even a long life is short. Better to try and fail than not do anything.
But life like boats is a compromise make your own.
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Old 09-01-2015, 15:52   #62
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

S&S 34 Association | Welcome to the Sparkman and Stephens 34 Site seems to be boat of choice down here in Australia for solo circumnavigators.

Good subject.
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Old 09-01-2015, 16:18   #63
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

Sorry gentlemen, i feel embarassed in saying that I disagree on most i've read, but one answer!

Seaworthy is, inshort, the ability to STAND the weather with class and minor damages, while maintaining dry, rather comfortable and Safe for the crew, and MANEUVERABLE in all worst foreseeable conditions. Which most depend on your sailing area, range, season..
Briefly, ability to SAIL&TACKING UPWIND under F7 breeze and a choppy crossed sea without heeling much, w/o spraying the stern at any wave.

You dont need to be a structural engineer to realize that a boat "bending&flexing" under strain is not good. Check the doors! If the hinges run smoothly or crack and jerks!

3 major components are
A good design
A good execution and choice of best material
Your cfew and fhe care you've devoted to your boat in EACH AND EVERY PIECE OF MATERIAL, Including washers, nuts up till HOW are the hooks of your spreaders joined to the mast.

And said that, e.g., whodoes check mast and righing ashore every say 6-8years maximum?

The is a reason why HERRESHOFF designed manufactured and iinspectedeach and every boat he built, the one for the Vanderbilts as well as the sandbagger for coastal cruisers
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Old 09-01-2015, 16:30   #64
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pirate Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

Because of what I do all boats are inherently seaworthy.. and I've delivered a few that many would not sail down the ICW.. looking at races is a waste of time.. that's about the skipper more than the boat as well.. this is not to say we are great.. just a self belief that one can take that boat on the requisite journey..
A bad skipper can wreck the best boat in the world.. a good skipper can take a boat that makes most wince most anywhere reasonable..
Don't get lost in the crap..
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Old 09-01-2015, 16:34   #65
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

Today, building an Herreshoff design afresh would be almost impossible, that workmanship,expertise, dedication is gone.
Nowadays? After knowing and appreciating and Understanding the past (e.g check some S&S designs like Stormy Weather, Dorade...) move to present times.for example...

I prefer bronze sea-cocks, no brass no teflon no exotic plastic please! I want silent blocks, i want lead acoustic panels, i need design safety factors of 3 to -4 and not 1,5 to 2 as to rigging, anchor lines and their nr (3 or 4), i want 3-bilge lumps,not two,of which one belt driven.
life-raft must be operated safely from upperdeck outboard, not hidden around.
Rigging... the most difgicult to assess for a prophane...e.g.
does anyone know that increasing a staysail diam. From 11 to 14mm (7/16 up to 9/16") cost is +65%? Or 600eur 800USD on a 54'...yes, they installed the 11mm, i am putting on a 14mm one.

on my keel, bolts are 7/8", as it is on Swan 70'. I added a pairing washer, a second counter-bolt and white grease
Again, great design, no compromise, much duty and care

Racing vessels have never been so afar from the seasoned cruising experience than nowadays! Please do not draw false conclusion from the tiny % of mass-assembly boats who share races for very personal agendas....say ego+sponsor+fun

the times of Swan 65 winning the Whotbread race are gone
PS yes, narrow deep heavysturdy, with the best rigging fittings you can afford, is the boat. Reach your own belief safely and surely

kudos, Julie <3
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Old 09-01-2015, 16:44   #66
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

Thanks a lot to everybody
My health is improoving considerably and I can relate to most of the general aspects used to narrow down my definitly imperfect boat.
Starting from scratch and never been seriously sailing my point of few is:
Some compromises I can live with, others are dangerous and others I don´t like.
Seaworthy for me starts when I am out of reach of external help, be it because weather conditions are critical or because of stress due to failiure of vital equipment on board. Here my instincts tell me that there should not be any trade offs.
Yes I wanna go seriously cruising but have no skills and all of the theoretical knowledge, wich is propoply nothing in regards to what I should know still needs to be put in to reality. So how far can my boat and modern tech help me to scope with that challenge. I do beleave here the machine can do a lot for me. I certainly enjoy the feeling of velocity but I don´t beleave that this will be one of my main concerns 24/7. For long distance I think comfort is crucial. So here I´m back again to ask how much can the machine help me?
Off course thinking that direction can be dangerous. How reliably are those machines, how much can I rely on them and where are the limits?
Well, here comes the auto pilot who s gonna do the job for me and obying my orders. Certainly my auto pilot with all his electronic capabilities is very sensitive to agressive enviromental conditions as also is my sailing machine.
Further more I can get some serious help for navigation and weather forcast. I can see what´s underneath my boat. I can get in and out of tight spots. I can even raise and take down my sails with a switch.
Is all of that important ?
Some here said that seaworthy depends on the crew ?
Well thinking of a good crew to me means I need at least 2 person on board who dominate all of that in case one of them humans gets sick or injury
In that critical situation for me seaworthy is...can one person handle the boat in critical weather conditions plus the taking care of the injured person ?
Defenitly dominating the tecnical aspects to a certain degree ?
is vital. Here 2 things get to my mind. One thing is analizing the state of the machine and here a good surveyer might be one of the best answers but that still leaves the risk of evaluating the importance towards seaworthy by the boat owner. Second...dominating the tech and a quality tool box.

Going further brings me to the concept of design. What is the idear of use of this boat, because that should determin the components and also the quality required of those..........hmmm
Seems that this has a lot to do with the interpretation of realities of the designers and how this is transfered afterwards by the boats builders. In some cases there is more harmony between the both while in other the discrepancys seem more obvious even so difficult to spot on first impression.
As far as individual design or production boat.
It seems logical that the next generation of a production boat should result in a better design and quality of the components. Unfortunatly I could not confirm that till now because I have this question better boat or easier/cheaper to built.
On the other side I am coming from the aircraft industry and I like the use of advanced materials and the precision posible with modern production tecnics.
I beleave if used corect they push the limits further towards safety parameters and there fore the range in regards to SEAWORTHY. Also this made it posible to built bigger boats for the same money and hold their value a lot better
In my regards to cruising...well I guess that will depend on how easy it is on board while I am cruising.Being used to certain comfort seaworthy requieres a compromise but I think a boat designed in particular for longer range cruising will satisfies my needs towards comfort to a reasonable degree. So eighter while sailing or sitting on shore the compromise should not be anything serious.
One more important aspect to me is how much time,money,effort does it cost to maintain this rather overbuilt,sized,equiped,weight sailing bathtub house bar with turbo in condition seaworthy.
Obviously I have to count on some situations where I have to reley on my personal talents and if I want to keep my cost down most of the situations. That said I valuate clean and easy exit to the components without acrobatic stress and good visuable layouts, even so it could be done with a little less space. In other words an estetic work area where I expect to spent some time on a continous basis seperated as much as posible from the rest of the boat and especially from the living area. I hate relations between grease,oil,Diesel and the living areas. Just the smells don´t mix well with food and rum

Do I want to buy several boats to find my still NOT perfect boat ?
Hell NO
Part of my dream is:
I really hope I can avoid it and spent the time cruising and having fun as long as posible.

Now some might ask what boat I have in mind.
Even so in this topic the intent is not to go in to any names as a newbee I will grant myself the liberty.....please forgive me
I´m dreaming of an Amel Maramu year 1995 and up
A production boat designed for long range cruising and live abord, EASY to sail,lot´s of boat for the money and keep value. Did some research.....yes there are some issues like on all boats but besides the sail drive and posible problems with spares there seem to be no life threadning questions and nothing that can be reasonably handeled. Also till now critics as far as design and quality of components are on the positive side.

Seaworthy ? I have no doubts

Any how.... just the points of views of a newbe

Fair Winds
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Old 09-01-2015, 16:56   #67
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

I also agree with boatman61.

Julie, the happy ones sailing Jongerts, Wally, Swans of the old time (not ferragamo's) Najad, HR and the likes have enough love for sea and their boats for having no reasons to test them agains others, and the sea..

PPS having no petrol, no or little gas, waterproof bow-door, sea-ways pipes with a syphon (duck neck) 70cm high, and where the waterline reaches your hips, when standing abast, are seaworthy <3
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:06   #68
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie Mor View Post
My dad did that. Had the boat 23 years, until the day he died. Never once thought about buying another.
Exactly what I believe. A boat is not a thing it's part of your family and when your child is sick you'll do everything to restore his health or to protect it before sickness happens.

So if you buy your boat an aspect of utmost security - and damn you gotta know what this means for you - and make all preparations to avoid her loss by pre-accident protections and plans - that simply is it.

AND when your heart is with the boat in this way... you never ever will change your baby with anything else. That's seamanship against credit card ship.

I mean you would not climb the everest with sandales so why do you think you can manage a ship without the utmost knowlege of it's systems?

Man there is nobody out there to help you if something fails in a storm. It is your security plan and resonsibility AND it has got nothing to do with a good or bad ship as the good ship will turn into a bas ship within max. 2 years if you are not good inough to maintain it properly.
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:28   #69
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

So how far can my boat and modern tech help me to scope with that challenge

Do not ask this question you know the answer... NOT AT ALL... as you have to keep in mind that every tech can and will fail... the only question is when!

Never rely on your engine in heavy weather you have to sail this out!
Never rely on your electric systems when you are sinking - keep a gasoline pump system for USD 200 well maintained and keep your boat well maintained with 2 backup systems for each possible threat if possible:

becomes easy:
take something above 40ft - moves a lot better in high waves
take something witch a V shaped bow instead of I (presses the waves aside and not above your deck)
take a long keel as you cannot loose your keel
take a ship with laminated and embedded tanks... it gives you a security deck in case of a hull damage.
keep your clothings in extreme good condition
Try to find a ship with bullseyes instead of windows
rigging for boats
Try to avoid a bathing platform and take a stern that enables the wave to run under your stern and not up the platform
try to get a middle cockpit - steering house is comfortable to - gives you safety
and - against a lot of other arguments - take a ketch as the clothing is easier to handle - smaller main sail and a small mizzensail gives you more flexibility with the same squares
Never use racing sails - keep on the strong dacron like boards. They reduce speed a bit but increase safety a lot.

keep your batteries as high as possible and the electric out of the bilge (you can run cables through the bilge but NO connectors inside the bilge.

Lot more to say but you should train yourself to know what you need. It is just thinking in the right way and to practice repairs.
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:54   #70
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
I doubt you will find any "production" boat having an un-seaworthy design.
I do remember a boat test in a Dutch yachting magazine where the conclusion of the testers was that the boat was so badly designed that it was even unsafe for coastal cruising.
This boat was then promptly taken of the market by the importer...

There are lemons out there. Not a lot, fortunately.
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Old 10-01-2015, 04:59   #71
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

While not exactly a test of seaworthiness, this video will give you some idea of the hardiness of production boats.

It is in german but you don't need the commentary


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Old 10-01-2015, 05:06   #72
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How Do You Determine If A Boat Is &quot;Seaworthy&quot;?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moseriw View Post
So how far can my boat and modern tech help me to scope with that challenge

Do not ask this question you know the answer... NOT AT ALL... as you have to keep in mind that every tech can and will fail... the only question is when!

Never rely on your engine in heavy weather you have to sail this out!
Never rely on your electric systems when you are sinking - keep a gasoline pump system for USD 200 well maintained and keep your boat well maintained with 2 backup systems for each possible threat if possible:

becomes easy:
take something above 40ft - moves a lot better in high waves
take something witch a V shaped bow instead of I (presses the waves aside and not above your deck)
take a long keel as you cannot loose your keel
take a ship with laminated and embedded tanks... it gives you a security deck in case of a hull damage.
keep your clothings in extreme good condition
Try to find a ship with bullseyes instead of windows
rigging for boats
Try to avoid a bathing platform and take a stern that enables the wave to run under your stern and not up the platform
try to get a middle cockpit - steering house is comfortable to - gives you safety
and - against a lot of other arguments - take a ketch as the clothing is easier to handle - smaller main sail and a small mizzensail gives you more flexibility with the same squares
Never use racing sails - keep on the strong dacron like boards. They reduce speed a bit but increase safety a lot.

keep your batteries as high as possible and the electric out of the bilge (you can run cables through the bilge but NO connectors inside the bilge.

Lot more to say but you should train yourself to know what you need. It is just thinking in the right way and to practice repairs.

Sorry. But this post just reads like the posters boat and is in the category of " blind loyalty "

v or I bows make little difference
Keels make little difference a good Keel will do the job. Fins are more hydrodynamically efficient and actually more useful in a storm ( as are spade rudders ) most boats don't hit things bad enough to do major damage
Embedded tanks are a nightmare , in you can, ensure every part of the interior can come through the companionway
Ketch provides no advantage with modern sail handling , costs more , little drive forget them
Bathing platform , is useful
Centre cockpits are merely a personal preference , higher roll effect , wetter etc
Batteries need to be low rather then high , stability etc especially if you have a lot , usually they are at sole height these days

Remember buy a boat that mets your 80% activity well. Meets the next 10 % reasonably well and is " acceptable " for the last 10 %

Almost anything over 38 feet will let you do " normal " leisure circumnavigations , often with a particular fit-out, do no obsess about minor items , ( if you want more handholds have then added etc, not discount the whole boat ) these can be changed and most of the time the original equipment works out fine. For example just because a locker opens after falling off a wave in a f9 storm, doesn't mean it's a bad boat .

Way to much focus on you need X hull and y keel and Z this or that, in particular mu experience is that US Sailors are more fond of conservative shapes, yet for no particular reason and also engage in a lot of min/maxing , be aware of cultural and national bias.

Firstly try and clearly establish where you will likely sail ( don't just say everywhere ) are you really going say to circumnavigate or is it just an odd ocean crossing every 6-8 years. Is the boat going to be used in hot or temperate climate , kids or regular visitors. Have you any pet hates etc.

Use your budget to settle on a few boats, watch boat age, old boats can require large amounts of systems upgrades which can cost a lot of money

Ignore the anti benehunter nonsense.

Once you have your budget and a clear list of where you are going and what you like as amenities , then have a look at boats in that category , work back from the newest boat you can afford

Don't try and overly focus on a boat that seemingly can " save" you in a survival storm. In my experience after 20 years of occasional deliveries, it's the crew that matter and particularly the skippers experience.

Once you have picked a boat or two , try ssiling it if at all possible.

Of course like everyone , you will buy the wrong boat, initially praise it to the heavens , finally get fed up and then move to the next one. There is no perfect boat, just the one you own

Dave




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Old 10-01-2015, 05:34   #73
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moseriw View Post
So how far can my boat and modern tech help me to scope with that challenge

Do not ask this question you know the answer... NOT AT ALL... as you have to keep in mind that every tech can and will fail... the only question is when!

Never rely on your engine in heavy weather you have to sail this out!
Never rely on your electric systems when you are sinking - keep a gasoline pump system for USD 200 well maintained and keep your boat well maintained with 2 backup systems for each possible threat if possible:

becomes easy:
take something above 40ft - moves a lot better in high waves
take something witch a V shaped bow instead of I (presses the waves aside and not above your deck)
take a long keel as you cannot loose your keel
take a ship with laminated and embedded tanks... it gives you a security deck in case of a hull damage.
keep your clothings in extreme good condition
Try to find a ship with bullseyes instead of windows
rigging for boats
Try to avoid a bathing platform and take a stern that enables the wave to run under your stern and not up the platform
try to get a middle cockpit - steering house is comfortable to - gives you safety
and - against a lot of other arguments - take a ketch as the clothing is easier to handle - smaller main sail and a small mizzensail gives you more flexibility with the same squares
Never use racing sails - keep on the strong dacron like boards. They reduce speed a bit but increase safety a lot.

keep your batteries as high as possible and the electric out of the bilge (you can run cables through the bilge but NO connectors inside the bilge.

Lot more to say but you should train yourself to know what you need. It is just thinking in the right way and to practice repairs.


I'm Dave on this one. This is misguided advice. If you truly need a boat that can take anything Momma Nature wants to dish out - well Beth and Evans boat, Hawk, is for sale. This boat will withstand most anything and can go anywhere. Why? Because it already has been almost everywhere.

Of course, I wouldn't discount the fact that Beth and Evans are expert sailors. That also has a lot to do with it.
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Old 10-01-2015, 06:05   #74
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moseriw View Post
So how far can my boat and modern tech help me to scope with that challenge

Do not ask this question you know the answer... NOT AT ALL... as you have to keep in mind that every tech can and will fail... the only question is when!
...becomes easy:
.
take something witch a V shaped bow instead of I (presses the waves aside and not above your deck)
take a long keel as you cannot loose your keel.......
try to get a middle cockpit - steering house is comfortable to - gives you safety
and - against a lot of other arguments - take a ketch as the clothing is easier to handle - smaller main sail and a small mizzensail gives you more flexibility with the same squares...
...
keep your batteries as high as possible..
..
Some puzzling comments, particularly the ones above. A battery bank, specially if it is a large one for offshore sailing is a very heavy piece of equipment and should be put as low as possible to lower CG.

There are no meaningful issues in what concerns the loss of keels on cruising boats with fin keels. A boat with a full keel will be slower with an increased passage time and therefore subjected to more risks. Sometimes this is discarded as being just a little and of no importance but a long keel boat took on the last ARC a week more than the average of cruising boats and most that have them took 3 or 4 days more.

A middle cockpit boat can give you a false sense of safety but in fact what it does (talking about boats with less than 50ft), besides giving you an aft king berth, is raising the CG, diminishing generally the boat storage capacity.
They also put the crew higher and more away from the boat CB on a position where they would be subject to more lateral movement that would increase sea motion, specially the less comfortable one (roll).

A v shaped bow is great for motorboats or cats that sail without heel. The more uncomfortable motion on a boat is upwind with waves and on that sailing position the boat is sailing with heel and depending on the form of a bow a V shaped one can increase pounding since what was a an inclined wall is now an almost flat one. Bow design as the all boat design is a complicated matter and simplistic generalizations will not make sense.
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Old 10-01-2015, 10:21   #75
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Re: How Do You Determine If A Boat Is "Seaworthy"?

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Originally Posted by TheThunderbird View Post
Julie, the happy ones sailing Jongerts, Wally, Swans of the old time (not ferragamo's) Najad, HR and the likes have enough love for sea and their boats for having no reasons to test them agains others, and the sea.
I think everyone with a reasonable amount of education in the world of sailing knows the manufacturers with the best reputations for building quality boats. Their good reputation precedes them. And if their price was the same as the boats of lesser quality, the latter wouldn't be in business.

But if you're in the market for the latter, you might need something more than the manufacturer's brochure, opinions of others or a fast talking salesman to get you to buy.

Any event that has a fixed start date (no picking the good weather window), open ocean sailing (no easy escape to shore if the weather kicks up) and several hundreds of miles in length can provide good data as to the durability, build quality and/or seaworthiness of the boat. And when the weather really tests the fleet, the data can be even better. If over time you see a trend, it's a pretty good indication the data is reliable.
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