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Old 20-09-2010, 19:06   #1
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How Close . . .

How close can you sail to the wind?
I got into an argument with a multi-hull type about pointing into the wind... I have a Cal28 (Lear-Siegler) with a 150% Genoa.... I regularly sail just 10-15 degrees off the wind with the full Genny out... My multi-hull buddy refuses to believe ANY boat can sail less than 30 degrees into the wind (he refuses to ride in a mono-hull for me to prove my point).

Yesterday, we were both sailing NW channel inbound Key West, and I ran a short-cut between Christmas and Sunset Key.... Only 10 degrees off dead into the wind with the toe rail in danger of getting wet... He says I cheated and ran the Diesel (I didn't).

What say you?
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Old 20-09-2010, 19:26   #2
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I've never raced against any boat that can point only 10 degrees off dead into the wind. You certainly must have an amazing yacht - surely 10 - 15 degress that can't be your most efficient angle.
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Old 20-09-2010, 19:33   #3
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It seems you're looking at the apparent wind. Most sailboats can sail in the neighborhood of 45 degrees from the true wind.



In late Spring in San Francisco Bay, it was often more prudent to fly a 100% jib rather than a 130% genny due to the strong winds to keep the boat "on its feet."
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Old 20-09-2010, 19:45   #4
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Amazing performance! I've raced on some pretty fancy high tech carbokevlarspectra monsters but never seen that.

As others have mentioned there is a difference between true and apparent or perhaps your windex or anemometer is out of whack?

Raymarine does not even put 10-15 on the display
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Old 20-09-2010, 19:48   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
It seems you're looking at the apparent wind. Most sailboats can sail in the neighborhood of 45 degrees from the true wind.
Ditto! in order to get the true angle of the wind (w/o all the fancy electronic gadgets) one would have to stop the boat completely read the direction by the compass, then head into the wind. You'll find out 30 is about as close as one can get. BTW the faster you go the closer you can get in relation to the boats hull speed.

My IOR will out point most production boats out there. But I still use the 90 off the beam waypoint for tacking.
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Old 20-09-2010, 19:58   #6
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Never mind the funny gadgets. Use the compass. Hard on thw wind, check your compass heading. Tack, get back hard on the wind, check your compass. Figure your tack to tack angle and divide in half. That is how close you were to the wind. Nothing to it. I won't say 30 degrees is not possible, but .... well, I don't think it is ....
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Old 20-09-2010, 20:44   #7
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The Americas Cup boats of yore were probably the best possible at pointing. They could sail at 18 degrees apparent.

You were not sailing at 10 degrees apparent (or true). Maybe you were sailing downwind :-) However your Cal with a genoa can easily out point any common multihull.
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Old 20-09-2010, 21:35   #8
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On my catamaran, how close I sail to the wind depends a great deal on sea state. If the water is extremely smooth, I can sail at least 45 degrees to the true wind, and probably closer. When things get rough, I will go out to 55 degrees to be able to bash to windward in bigger seas.

If it is important to get to windward as fast as possible, I will turn on one engine and pinch the sails extremely close to the wind.

I generally do not sacrifice boat speed just so I can sail closer to the wind.
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Old 20-09-2010, 22:29   #9
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60 is comfortable, no pinching, and the heel isn't too bad. I can go tighter but not much. Cutter rig.
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Old 20-09-2010, 23:45   #10
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Modern racing yachts of the supermaxi type, with fancy canards and canting keels might make about 30 degrees true wind angle, maybe even a bee's dick closer, pinching like heck. My IOR 40' 1-tonner can "point like a japanese tour guide", but that is probably, in reality, only about 38-40 degrees TWA. Rest assured, your Cal28 does not sail 10 degrees TWA, no way, no how.

Bear in mind, sailing at 6 knots, in 15 knots of breeze, at 45 degrees TWA, your apparent wind angle would be about 32 degrees. At 5 knots, in 15 knots of wind, at 40 degrees, your apparent is 30.... etc.
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Old 21-09-2010, 00:13   #11
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There was an earilier thread like this one in which I stated that my Valiant could go 30 degrees into the wind "all day long". You guys were patient with me and didn't disagree. I found that to be true- on the GPS and with a strong following tide! I tried it on slack water and behold- not more than 35 degrees tacking. Please accept my apology.
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Old 21-09-2010, 00:23   #12
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So, that's the reason I see boats with the front of their sails flapping/luffing!
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Old 21-09-2010, 00:34   #13
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The J24 at optimum is sailing in 15kts true at about 44 degrees true. The apparent is about 20kts and 33 degrees. The boat speed target is 5.6. VMG is about 4kts.

Admittedly every J-pilot complains about pointing but it is still a race boat.

No cruising boat is doing 10 degrees to apparent. Sorry...

Quote:
I regularly sail just 10-15 degrees off the wind with the full Genny out... My multi-hull buddy refuses to believe ANY boat can sail less than 30 degrees into the wind (he refuses to ride in a mono-hull for me to prove my point).
You may be able to pinch to 15 degrees for short periods but I guarantee the boat is going slow and VMG is suffering.

We can get Relax Lah to 30 degrees apparent in 15+ knots but not for long. She is steady at about 35.
\
I could not find a polar for the cal 28 but here is one for the san juan 28.

Cal 28
LWL - 22.5
Sail Area - 351
Weight = 6,000

SJN28
LWL - 22.3
SA = 383
Weight = 6200

Pretty similar boats. Note the Polar doesn't start until 30 degrees.

I reckon your boat on the 16 knot line is sailing at about 6kts boat speed and apparent angle of 35-40 degrees for best VMG of 3.9 kts.


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Old 21-09-2010, 00:56   #14
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Just for fun I googled another boat I have raced on.

This is the Beneteau First 40.7. It is the racing version designed by Bruce Farr who might know what he is doing.

You can see at 16 kts true the boat is at 25 degrees apparent.

It is a fun ride though!

Here we are close reaching with the A-sail. Bit of a trimming class going on on the foredeck.
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Old 21-09-2010, 03:30   #15
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Come on, you guys aren't trying hard enough. My 22 year design Cal-39 cruising boat can point to 0 degress true! it still moves; .............backwards and no noticable heel! Those fancy new racing boats must be able to do better.
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