How Close . . .

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by capngeo

... I have sailed a LOT of different boats, and this Cal is new to me. I bought it last year, and other than my trip from Venice to Key West last October I've only sailed her on day trips. ...

...At the moment my iPhone is the only instrument I have for navigation other than my laptop that was not aboard and my un-swung compass. My compass is within 10 degrees of the GPS and most times within 5....

I'm sailing fron Venice to New York in November, but on a cruise ship and never on a small boat with an uncompensated compass and limited navigational devices. I'm incredulous of your transatlantic feat.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by daddle

However your Cal with a genoa can easily out point any common multihull.

Not so. It should out-point "common multihulls" with low-aspect stub keels, but it will not outpoint "common multihulls" with centerboards and provision for close sheeting angles.

My Dragonfly trimaran has a 6.5' draft with centerboard down and sails quite efficiently at 30 degrees apparent. We can point and tack similar to "performance-cruiser" monohulls (and leave them all in our wake in 10+ knots of true wind). As for the 10-15 degrees capngeo claims for his cal -- that is simply a misunderstanding or instrument malfunction of some sort (unless under power).

With engine on we sail at 10 apparent

One more thing -- you folks who are quoting NWS historical data might as well be quoting the weather on Mars. Local conditions (as in within 100 yards of a boat and 1-minute time difference) vary significantly. And what about magnetic deviation from the "north up" projection of capngeo's i-phone?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by capngeo

OK I know I asked for this..... But I'm not a troll and don't BS on purpose. I didn't start this thread to be attacked or be labeled a bulls***er! I know there are others here with more time on the water than I, especially on sailboats. The reason I started the thread, was to see if anyone else observed a boat with similar ability, as THIS boat heads upwind better than any other I have ever sailed.

OK Capngeo, the reason you started this thread " was to see if anyone else observed a boat with similar ability, as THIS boat heads upwind better than any other I have ever sailed"

The answer has been unanimously NO, and there have been several folks who have kindly tried to show you why we don't really believe your claims.

As I said in my previous post, I don't think you are trying to mislead us (that is, I'm not accusing you of being a BS'er), but I do think that you don't understand how to measure apparent wind angles and how they relate to true wind angles.

Again, what I and most of the other posters here are saying is that not only is it impossible for your Cal-28 to do what you claim, but that no other boats known to the group can even approach this degree of close-windedness.

I hope that you can accept this group wisdom without construing it as a personal attack.

Cheers,

Jim

[Weyalan]

It might even be worth stopping and having a think about how a sailboat actually works, i.e. what it is about a sailboat that allows it to move to windward - essentially, the same thing that allows an airplane to fly. As Scotty from Star Trek would say: "Ye cannae change the laws o' physics". What you are proposing is, essentially, contrary to the laws of physics. I'm not calling you a BSer, either, just mistaken.

[Weyalan]

Let me put it another way:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/YD/200...-%20Polars.jpg
The above link will give you the polar speed data for both a TP52 and an IMS52. These are 2 of the most high performance, state of the art, whizz-bang, ultra-light, ultra fast racing boats on the planet. Note how their polars stop at about 35 degrees true wind angle. There is a reason for this.... and the reason is that they can't sail closer that 35 degrees to the wind. But you reckon that your 30 something year old, 28 foot, dirty bottomed, IOR hull-shape 4KSB can sail at 10 degrees to the wind...

Does. Not. Compute.

[capngeo]

[QUOTE=Jim Cate;526946]

Originally Posted by capngeo

OK I know I asked for this..... But I'm not a troll and don't BS on purpose. I didn't start this thread to be attacked or be labeled a bulls***er! I know there are others here with more time on the water than I, especially on sailboats. The reason I started the thread, was to see if anyone else observed a boat with similar ability, as THIS boat heads upwind better than any other I have ever sailed.

QUOTE]
OK Capngeo, the reason you started this thread " was to see if anyone else observed a boat with similar ability, as THIS boat heads upwind better than any other I have ever sailed"

The answer has been unanimously NO, and there have been several folks who have kindly tried to show you why we don't really believe your claims.

As I said in my previous post, I don't think you are trying to mislead us (that is, I'm not accusing you of being a BS'er), but I do think that you don't understand how to measure apparent wind angles and how they relate to true wind angles.

Again, what I and most of the other posters here are saying is that not only is it impossible for your Cal-28 to do what you claim, but that no other boats known to the group can even approach this degree of close-windedness.

I hope that you can accept this group wisdom without construing it as a personal attack.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim....
I certainly accept the MAJORITY of the posts as constructive.... some were a bit...... Obtuse?

As I mentioned, my "measurements" were very seat-of-the-pants. I agree with the group, in that I have sailed a lot of boats that don't run upwind worth a darn..... I maintain THIS boat sails closer to the wind than any other I have ever been on. From the replies, it would seem that even if my observations were off by 100%, the performance would still be remarkable. Yet, I still sailed a course my buddy said was "impossible" without the Diesel factor, and my engine was room temperature when I dropped anchor.

How about we leave it at this; ANY member of this forum is welcome to sail with me, take the helm, and call the shots...( there has to be some in or near KW) If they say I'm full of excrement, I will whole heartedly apologize to the forum publicly. If they come back and say "wow the CAL really points" then we will all toast Mr. Hunt's design ability, as it is CERTAINLY NOT my ability as a sailor that makes this boat run windward.

Originally Posted by markpierce

I'm sailing fron Venice to New York in November, but on a cruise ship and never on a small boat with an uncompensated compass and limited navigational devices. I'm incredulous of your transatlantic feat

Ah..... Venice FLORIDA

[hummingway]

Ok, making my usually attempt at complete irrelevancy ... I took the boat out last week and found my wind vane only pointing in one direction. There had been a lot of purple martens around. The cute little buggers like to roost and have a good chat. The guy who sits on the highest spot seems to get some kind of bragging rights so my vane is quite popular. I watched a young fellow try to sit on it one day. Every time the wind moved he'd flap his wings trying to keep his balance but he didn't give up. I figure eventually he applied a little "cement" to the situation and found himself more stable. A good gust broke the cements hold and the wind seemed to behave much more sensibly. Ok ... back to our regular scheduled discussion ...

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by capngeo

Ah..... Venice FLORIDA

Oh! I must be too focused on my Venice, Italy trip.

[wannago]

As a previous poster mentioned, point up as high as you can, get the compass reading, tack and point up as high as possible again.

I'm guessing you'll find about a 100 degree difference in the two indicating that you're getting about as close to the wind as everyone here thinks you are. No fancy equipment really needed.

As far as the two island and you quarrel with your buddy, don't think I know enough about the two islands or what your buddy was arguing about, nor am I really going to concern myself.

[VirtualVagabond]

Originally Posted by hummingway

Ok, making my usually attempt at complete irrelevancy ... ...

And then there's the yin and the yang of it, and the direction of the solar wind... bet you never took that into account either.
Anyone else feeling there's nothing more to add?

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by capngeo

OK I know I asked for this..... But I'm not a troll and don't BS on purpose. I didn't start this thread to be attacked or be labeled a bulls***er! I know there are others here with more time on the water than I, especially on sailboats. The reason I started the thread, was to see if anyone else observed a boat with similar ability, as THIS boat heads upwind better than any other I have ever sailed.

No one is calling you a BSer. A BSer doesn't believe their own claim. You clearly believe what you are saying.

As to the reason you started this thread - Answer = No one on this board has ever, ever seen a boat that would routinely point 10-15 degrees to apparent under sail alone.

This includes everyone's personal boats and the J24, Etchels, TP52, IM52 & Beneteau First 40.7. Polar plots have been provided for these boats except the Etchels.

A polar plot has been provided for a SJN28, very similar to your boat, that also shows it is unlikely you are pointing a CAL28 10 degrees apparent.

You believe your boat points better than race bred yachts. Everyone is simply trying to help you understand that it is impossible.

However you probably have a great pointing CAL28. You probably have a great 150% genny that you love. You made a great pass through a narrow channel demonstrating the confidence you have in yourself and your boat. Most importantly you beat your buddy back to the marina! Everyone loves their boats and you rightfully do too.

If I ever get to Fla, I'd love to sail with you. But if you really want to convince us, join a beer can race at your club and let us know how you do against the club fleet in terms of pointing. Not because we don't believe you and want to say, "I told you so", but because it will settle the issue in your own mind.

Alternately next time you are out make a track into the wind that includes at least 4 tacks and post it. You track only shows one tack that is over 90 degrees so we can't determine anything.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Weyalan

Let me put it another way:
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/YD/200...-%20Polars.jpg
The above link will give you the polar speed data for both a TP52 and an IMS52. These are 2 of the most high performance, state of the art, whizz-bang, ultra-light, ultra fast racing boats on the planet. Note how their polars stop at about 35 degrees true wind angle. There is a reason for this.... and the reason is that they can't sail closer that 35 degrees to the wind. But you reckon that your 30 something year old, 28 foot, dirty bottomed, IOR hull-shape 4KSB can sail at 10 degrees to the wind...

Does. Not. Compute.

I had to read your post more than once to finally get it. I was struggling with a TP52 only pointing 35 apparent. Of course it makes sense that these polars are true wind...

We had a TP52 racing regularly in regattas here. We did a staggered passage race on the final day of a regatta in the hopes that the finish would have a "cluster" of boats.

The TP started 30 minutes after us in the Beneteau. After the first Mark, maybe 10-12 miles we had the first spinnaker set. The TP passed us like a freakin' freight train. Closed up about a 4 mile gap in around an hour.

Here is a shot of the TP a "bit" powered up.