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Old 03-02-2011, 17:32   #31
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My solution is buy steel.

Here is an older thread that had some good info.

Challenge: Holed and Taking on Water !

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Old 03-02-2011, 17:51   #32
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there used to be a product called yacht savers. was a bunchA BALLOON LIKE THINGIES TO FULL UP BOAT like A BAG OF AIR TO NOt sink.

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Old 03-02-2011, 17:57   #33

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the spray foam would 'skin over' when in contact with water, so it wont 'stick to wet surfaces well, but, if you could spray it into a hole or breach, it would 'wrap around' and be on both sides of the hole, (assuming a certain sized hole).. and start expanding around the hole and itself and all over.

I guess I would rather find something else, but if all i had was cushions and spray foam, i will use both, and my little dutch boy finger...
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Old 03-02-2011, 19:11   #34
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Stop the leak--no pump is big enough.

If you are seriously expecting problems, I would agree that a metal hull and/or watertight compartment(s) is the way to go.

For the rest of us, we either have to stop the leak or pump water out faster. Years ago, I considered and followed all the well intended advise about big pumps and schemes to pump water out by diverting the engine pump, the fresh water pump and you name it.

Then I saw some data on the amount of water even a 1" hole would let into the boat and I came to the conclusion that I'd never be able to pump water out that fast. The inflow is unbelievable. That was confirmed last summer when I was was part of a salvage crew trying to refloat a partially sunken barge--six 2" gas driven pumps couldn't keep water out faster than seemingly minor leaks were letting it in. Just look at the water that comes in when you swap out your speedometer sensor impeller. So I am now of the opinion that if you breach the hull in any way large or small, the only option is to do something to stem the flow of incoming water ASAP.

My current plan is an assortment of ways to slow the water coming in from the outside like collision mats, etc. Then another assortment of inside the hull fixes to further slow the water and finally "hydraulic concrete" which sets fairly quickly underwater (Home Depot). The bilge pump is just to evacuate the considerable trickle that is left over.

If you look at all the places such a hole could occur like inside lockers and hard to reach places, they all have their own best fixes. You have to be creative. Look around the boat and ask yourself how you would plug holes in different areas. If it is a confined space, maybe inflating a beach ball or air matress in the locker will buy you time. I've seen $1 foam swiming pool floatation "noodles" ripped apart and stuffed in small cracks to good effect. One thing alone is not going to fix it. You have to progressively slow the leak until you can execute a semi-permanate fix like filling the compartment with concrete or something. BTW--the expanding foam in cans does not work. It will float away and stick to you--I've already seen this tried.
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Old 03-02-2011, 20:00   #35
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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
if the poster is planning to go up to the ice in a normal production sailing boat i would suggest that the most cost effective solution would be to protect the area about a foot above the waterline and a foot below,externally by adding several layers of kevlar cloth,epoxyied to the outer hull.

this can be achived by grinding back the gel coat,applying matting and vacume bagging then infusing with epoxy resin.

then you have effectively the properties of steel at the waterline.

a water tight bow locker would also be a good idea.
I HATE IT when somebody makes this much sense. On the old boat it wasn't a concern, but on the Hardin? It seems a little fragile and now I know a project I'm doing next time I'm in the yard. THANKS BTW I'll never go to steel, 35 years of high speed machinery showed me what happens to it under vibrations/stress. Just my opinion.
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Old 04-02-2011, 05:27   #36
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I was also thinking of fiberglassing the entire compartment under the v-berth to make a water tight compartment where the most likely damage could occur.
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Old 04-02-2011, 06:15   #37
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No question; steel is by far the best choice if you are going to the ends of the earth; even better than aluminum ( search: modulus of elasticity). BTW : I wouldn't be too worried about keeping a flooded hull afloat in artic waters since sloshing around inside a flooded hull in cold water surely is untenable even in quite tame conditions and the chances of salvaging a boat that has been full of salt water for even a few hours is cost prohibitive, even if , in the unlikely event , that sea tow is standing by as your hull is breached.Insurance companies often total a craft that has sunk overnite while on a mooring in fresh water. Rather think in terms of saving your own bacon ,ie. survival suits ,epirbs,bibles,sled dogs and lotsa rum.
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Old 04-02-2011, 06:21   #38
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Like I said in that other thread, very interesting project you've got and I wish you all the best.

I think the NW passage was done by a similar size GRP boat last year and also a GRP catamaran or trimaran did the trip. So it is doable for sure.

I've also been thinking of somekind of emergency system, to plug holes, for which the wooden/plastic plugs are useless.

I came across this sometime ago, anyone has experience, if this works?
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Old 04-02-2011, 06:57   #39
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Nerf footballs, the little ones, seem like a good idea for stopping up holes. Not my idea, got it somewhere else. There is one right now shoved into one of our dorades, to keep cold air out.
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:00   #40
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Glassed in water tight bulkheads below deck is the only sure thing. Sealing the forward compartment is a good idea. The home depot foam works good at sealing holes where wires and pipes go through the bulkheads, but takes too long to cure for anything else. Blocks of foam wedged in place with a piece of wood will go a long way to fixing a leak. Be prepared to abandon ship and cross on the ice if neccessary, carry arctic survival gear. Some way of recirculating warm water outside the hull might be good. There was a blog of a guy who overwintered aboard in Norway by running pumps outside the hull to keep from getting frozen in place. Good luck free of ice is a very relative term.
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:06   #41
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grab a copy of "North to the Night" by Alvah Simon
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:17   #42
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In actual experience, you have better chance of running up on rocks than being holed at sea. Few, if any, boats carry collision mats or even the handy and useful "umbrella" plugs.
- - Problem is - there is little or no time to do anything if you have a collision at sea. the main hazard is floating containers that have fallen off small container ships or island freighters who are not built to carry containers and just lash them on their decks. These things normally sink within minutes, but the "refrigerated" ones have been know to float "level with the sea" for months.
- - Two of the collisions at sea I remember reading about - the boats sank in 3 minutes or less so all the available time was used in getting the liferaft and ditch bag, etc plus MayDay alerts out - little or no time was available to deal with the massive hold in the side of the boat. (one was hit by a submarine off Bermuda).
- - As said by others, metal boats are much better if you can afford one. In the fiberglass, vinyl-ester or epoxy boats are much stronger than polyester hulls, but if you can afford one of those you can afford a metal boat.
- - Like lightning protection, collision at sea holing is statistically very remote. But having wooden or vinyl cone plugs by each through-hull/seacock and at least a mental plan to deal with things like a lost propeller shaft or rudder and shaft can convert a sinking into just a tense few minutes while you stuff something into the hole.
- - High water alarms and an extra large back up bilge pump in the bilge area also helps. But all-in-all, having the mental clarity and calmness to quickly assess where and what is leaking and "plug it" is rather rare amongst today's boutique-style boaters. Just not too long ago a boat was lost in the Virgins when the charterers experienced a simple "knock-down" and didn't know how to recover from it - and they had ll the hatches and companion way open. . . Sad but true . . .
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:27   #43
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Here's the Finnish boat that finished the passage some months ago, you might also contact them, to ask advices.

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Old 04-02-2011, 08:28   #44
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Get some strong canvas triangles made up with re-enforced eye's at each corner... base 4ft, sides 5ft and splice on lines... 2 base lines long enough to go round the hull + a bit for handling... peak line around 6ft.
Store one each side by the mast ready to grab fast... one person can start setting it up while the other takes of way as fast as possible... heave to... whatever...
clip on short line on side of hole.. lead other two round the bow.. attach one forward the other midships then adjust to cover hole and haul tight....
this should slow things down greatly...
To make life easier colour one edge red... helps avoid a twist..

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Old 04-02-2011, 09:13   #45
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I carry a collision mat but I can see from the post above that I had not given enough thought as to where to store it. Since it's one of those things you hope you never use, I can see it it sinking deeper and deeper into the worng storage spot until you have no idea where it is, much less how fast you can get to it.

Thanks Boatman

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