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Old 31-07-2012, 15:47   #1
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Here we go again…

I’m easily amused so I always read the HAG (Hunters, Anchors, Guns) threads but I never thought I’d start one.

Here’s the issue. My primary anchor is a Fortress FX 23 (15 lbs.), for my 34’, 10,500 lb. fin keeled boat. It’s oversized but I can handle it with my bum back. I have no windlass and don’t want one.

I sail primarily in SW Lake Superior, the Apostle islands mainly. It’s a sand and mud bottom and relatively clean.

I anchored in 10’of water in a bay protected on three sides with 7:1 scope, including the height of my bow (National Park Service mandate) and in very light wind. It had been squally, not unusual for Superior.

During the evening/night the boat did a number of 360’s around the anchor and luckily the wind remained light. Other boats in the anchorage sailed around their anchors also.

When I weighed anchor in the AM (still was 15 lbs. – that was humor) the chain rode (20’) had wrapped around the stock and the anchor came in backwards. Good thing the wind had stayed light.

Question: Are spade type anchors less inclined to foul their rodes?

Options:

1. Buy a Rocna (equivalent weight 33 lbs) or other stockless spade type anchor. (A new anchor's OK but it’s gotta be lighter than 33 lbs. No windlass electric or manual. Suggestions?)
2. Some sort of anchoring staysail to minimize the boat’s sailing at anchor?
3. More chain? Less chain?
4. Your thoughts?
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Old 31-07-2012, 15:54   #2
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Re: Here we go again…

Find a Hunter in the anchorage, shoot a hole in it to sink it and snag your Rocna in its rigging - you won't need to worry about dragging.

Yes, I have had the rode snag on danforth-type stocks before and it can happen with any anchor designed with a stock (fisherman, Northill, etc).

Stockless anchors can't foul the stocks because, well, there aren't any.

Spade sells aluminum versions of their anchors if you want to save weight and your back. This versions can have a more difficult time penetrating hard bottoms, but it sounds like your area is soft. They do cost a bit, though.

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Old 31-07-2012, 16:15   #3
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Re: Here we go again…

used original bruce, 40 pounds, and use 5/16 chain, at least 100 ft. use winches until you save for a manual windlass.
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Old 31-07-2012, 18:00   #4
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Re: Here we go again…

Sounds like you were really winding around the anchor quite a bit. So, what you are saying is that the chain slid in under and wrapped around the stocks, not the flukes and that any tug at all would have set you free. If you were anchored in sand wouldn't the stocks be buried?
Anyway, I have a big aluminum Fortress that I've used and have had good luck with it in sand and mud. I have to drop it with very little way on and I use extra heavy chain to keep it on the bottom then back down as hard as I can to see if it is set well. I like to use chain at least as long as the boat and a couple sizes up from what is recommended. Might weigh a little more and be a little harder on the back but it keeps the anchor on the bottom.
The Fortress is not my main anchor but does me well when there isn't high winds predicted.
kind regards,
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Old 31-07-2012, 18:11   #5
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Re: Here we go again…

I only use danforth type anchors for straight line pull situations like kedging or putting multiple anchors in a star configuration. I used to use one for a bower till i dragged too many times where the tide would change the anchor would rip a chunk of bottom up and not set again. I use a delta plow but will probably switch to a spade digging type when the novelty wears off and the price comes down to reality.

Question for spade owners. Have you ever rodeout a storm and not been able to retrieve your gear? Ive had danforth types dig so deep they came up mangled after storms.
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Old 31-07-2012, 18:14   #6
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Re: Here we go again…

genuine CQR
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Old 31-07-2012, 18:33   #7
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Re: Here we go again…

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailstoo View Post

Question: Are spade type anchors less inclined to foul their rodes?

Options:

1. Buy a Rocna (equivalent weight 33 lbs) or other stockless spade type anchor. (A new anchor's OK but it’s gotta be lighter than 33 lbs. No windlass electric or manual. Suggestions?)
2. Some sort of anchoring staysail to minimize the boat’s sailing at anchor?
3. More chain? Less chain?
4. Your thoughts?
You may want to take a look at this web site, which discusses the physics involved in a laymans (sort of) language.

Their basic findings from testing is to use a combined chain/rope rode. That solves a lot of your weight problem.
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Old 31-07-2012, 18:52   #8
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Re: Here we go again…

Sounds like you have what you want but just want some confirmation that it is OK. lake Superior is a funny place. It can be one of the toughest place to sail yet the Apostle Islands can convey a friendly place with peaceful waters. Without a windlass you are limited. I would be more in the 33 lb spade, Bruce, CQR camp with all 5/16 chain just because nothing sets better than chain. I sure wouldn't want to haul in 100 ft by hand though.

So is your back softer than an alternative? Nothing will pull out by hand easier than what you have. Nothing will prevent you from going in circles. It's acceptable to sail in circles and not drag! More chan could have prevented wrapping the shank. 50 ft to me would be minimal. It covers the summer thunderstorms that are not off the chart yet Lake Superior can be off the chart just because it wants to be. It is large enough to make it's own weather and most of the water that flow into it falls into it as rain. It deserves as much respect as any ocean.
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Old 31-07-2012, 19:45   #9
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Re: Here we go again…

Oh boy an anchor thread..

Like Zee, I vote for the Bruce, ideally a 44#. Love my bruce.. I don't have a windlass and only 20 feet of chain. I know. I need more chain and a windlass but I and my boat have issues with the windlass part.

Anyway. I use my primary jib winch to bring the rode in till its vertical, then use the engine, or sail to pull it out (engine controls are right next to my jib winch). Then get 10' of chain on deck and using legs and yes back pull the rest up by hand.

Its a pain in the back, sure, but I sleep pretty good now a days.

I've had 8 wraps on a northhill once. Woke up feeling the boat dragging. So the northhill is a spare only now...

My issue with the windlass is I have a rather substantial sampson post with massive reinforcement down below in the vberth. A manual winch would have the front bolts 26-28 inches in front of the port supports. So not sure how I would reach in to put nuts on the front bolts....
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Old 01-08-2012, 07:57   #10
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Re: Here we go again…

sailstoo,

I think you could add politics to your list of topics for entertaining discussions....particularly now, but enough on that.

If the anchor was well-buried and the rode was relatively tight throughout the night during the wind shifts, I don't see how the chain could have become wrapped around the stock.

Maybe it happened during retrieval...when the scope was 1:1 and the 20' ball of chain was resting on top of the anchor and it became entangled then?
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:52   #11
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Re: Here we go again…

fortress---TIDES HAPPEN. wrap is mostly caused by tidal changes and circling the anchor in an anchorage.n isnt caused by lifting anchor..is caused by TIDAL FLOW.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:44   #12
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Re: Here we go again…

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
fortress---TIDES HAPPEN. wrap is mostly caused by tidal changes and circling the anchor in an anchorage.n isnt caused by lifting anchor..is caused by TIDAL FLOW.
OP states he's on a lake.

If the OP doesn't want to go heavier he could get a second anchor the same size or lighter and set it opposite from the primary. Keeps from wrapping and pulling the anchor out. If you always expect lighter winds from the secondary direction you can use a lighter anchor as the secondary.

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Old 01-08-2012, 10:03   #13
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Re: Here we go again…

I have seen chain wrap around the tip of a bruce at least 3 times... so not sure that solves the problem. A delta might work great for you, but there is the weight... Maybe your best anchor is a small riding sail.....? If you used a kellett, would the boat rotate around the kellett instead of around the anchor in those light conditions? Based on recent pictures, the Rocna will likely turn into a pretzel just from boat rotation! :>)
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Old 01-08-2012, 11:23   #14
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Re: Here we go again…

Quote:
Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
OP states he's on a lake.


John
Yes Lake Superior.. one of those big arsed ones at the top of the US... i dooo believe they too have tides. Maybe not HUGE tides, but the moon affects them the same as the rest of us.
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Old 01-08-2012, 12:01   #15
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Re: Here we go again…

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Yes Lake Superior.. one of those big arsed ones at the top of the US... i dooo believe they too have tides. Maybe not HUGE tides, but the moon affects them the same as the rest of us.
I never thought about the possibility that the Great Lakes were big enough for tides, but it only took a minute to find out that they essentially don't. The 2 inch spring tide is masked by seiches. The seiches are due to wind or barometric pressure making the lake level vary. Lake Superior as much as a foot and Lake Erie can be as much as 15 feet between the ends of the lake.

Doesn't sound periodic or something that would repeatedly wrap your chain around your anchor over the course of a night or two.

Do the Great Lakes have tides?

EEK! - Lake Superior

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