Help please! Dutch buying process/contract/survey

[richr]

Originally Posted by blu3534

From the perspective of the broker maybe you are also 'quite complicated'? To send hundreds of photos, revise contracts and email correspondence also takes time (i.e. costs).

You said, that the boat is sound in principle, issues are superficial and got a price reduction. Maybe the broker is a bit afraid that you will never stop asking for discount?

If you were not owner before there might be the 'danger' that you are 'over-critical' for non-important stuff. With boats there always will be some (minor) parts that could be improved.

'Unfair contract' may also be seen from the other side. What if you walk away from the contract for 'non-reasons'? Maybe the broker senses the need to be careful there?

But asking for opinion and getting in contact with Olav sounds good. Hope things settle in such a way that all involved parties are happy at last.

Thanks, valid but not in this case. I asked for photos of lockers and galley and specifically said "please show me the worst of it so I don't have surprises". He sent me dozens of photos; omitted the one locker that has an eight-inch long deep gash through the veneer to the wood beneath and omitted the cracks to the galley worksurface. And came over all angry when I said those needed to be rectified or the price adjusted. His colleague said to my wife "that's just your subjective opinion and frankly you should expect this"... Well, indeed it is our subjective opinion and it's our money at stake thanks!

Like I said the seller is fine with fixing; had it been me I just would have done it before the boat was on the market.

I don't think it's complicated to expect the industry standard contract to be used, reflecting terms that I explicitly stated as part of my formal Offer, and were explicitly agreed by the seller. I have now heard from a Dutch lawyer, two surveyors and another yacht broker to the effect this contract is absurd and they are trying it on.

So either they change the contract or I look elsewhere.

[syPhilos]

Brokers can be the pits ... So can surveyors, but since you're working with Olav, you won't have to worry there

Hope the seller can get through to the broker and you'll end up having a wonderful sail back home across the pond with your new boat.

[250224]

Originally Posted by richr

Like I said the seller is fine with fixing; had it been me I just would have done it before the boat was on the market.

Me too, and also cleaned the mold (if I knew it). -- That really doesn't sound pleasantly, wouldn't send a Christmas card either ..and advance carefully.

[richr]

Latest update:

Agreed all terms in a 20-minute call with the seller; drafted them together in an exchange of four emails that took 90 minutes; seller has now sent to the broker saying "do it like this". So I am now feeling much happier and looking forward to the survey.

It just shouldn't have taken two weeks of arguing with the broker and him telling me that changes to the contract were quite impossible.

Many thanks everyone for advice, particularly the helpful signpost to HISWA.

[syPhilos]

Good news! Here's hoping the survey will go well

Side note on HISWA: they can be helpful for consumers sometimes, but they're there for the businesses. If a HISWA business doesn't stick to 'the rules' HISWA will sometimes steer them in the right direction, but when all is said and done, HISWA and their "code of conduct" exists to help the businesses, not consumers.

Who will do the survey? Olav Cox?

[richr]

Originally Posted by syPhilos

Good news! Here's hoping the survey will go well

Side note on HISWA: they can be helpful for consumers sometimes, but they're there for the businesses. If a HISWA business doesn't stick to 'the rules' HISWA will sometimes steer them in the right direction, but when all is said and done, HISWA and their "code of conduct" exists to help the businesses, not consumers.

Who will do the survey? Olav Cox?

Agree on codes of conduct...but of course the interests of customer and business are not entirely divergent (although this broker seems to think so). I understand the UK industry is tending towards much MORE protection for customers; (writing as an economist) this has the effect of making sellers/brokers prepare and present their yachts better and more transparently. Which you'd expect to result in more sales completing to mutual satisfaction. That's what the HISWA stuff does too, and why it's so odd not to include it.

A certain well-known Lymington broker advised me that they allow customers to withdraw on the test sail without explanation. Customer has already sunk 2k on survey and launch; highly unlikely they are frivolous; much better to engage openly and honestly from the outset.

[Montanan]

Progress made, good news.

Hoping the survey and test sail are satisfactory and that you end up with the vessel that fulfills your desires and gives much pleasure and joy.

Would enjoy viewing pictures and reading continued updates as to the subsequent actions and findings.

Looking forward to a posting of a selfie of you on your first sail after closing of the purchase and of the naming of the vessel.

Cheers.

[Pelagic]

My experiences working and living in Holland is that the Dutch can be very stubborn at times, if they feel you are trying to control them.
They reciprocate in an aggressive manner.
Getting the Owner to intervene is more about face saving than policy.

[richr]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

My experiences working and living in Holland is that the Dutch can be very stubborn at times, if they feel you are trying to control them.
They reciprocate in an aggressive manner.
Getting the Owner to intervene is more about face saving than policy.

Don't really get that ..

This is not me trying to control the broker. It's me trying to get a contract that allows me to rectify issues the surveyor finds, either through repair, or price adjustment, or at worst pulling out. About trying not to be controlled myself...in terms that I agreed with the seller.

In terms of "saving face"...well, to the extent the seller and I fixed the contractual issues, quickly and simply, behind the broker's back, I'd call that policy. Hopefully it all goes according to plan, and I now have a contract in place that is fair to both parties, not the abusive one the broker was insistent on.

[Pelagic]

Double post

[Pelagic]

Did not mean to imply that you tried to control....only that some Dutch are extremely sensitive to that perception if you challenge them

[mat jam]

Word of warning,

I bought my boat from a Dutch individual and through his Dutch agent which was quite professional. Having said that, the individual I bought my boat from bought a boat from another Dutch broker who did not do his due diligence and after taking possession of his new boat had the bank repossess the boat and the seller nowhere to be found. Last I heard he began legal proceedings and has since bought another boat.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by mat jam

Word of warning,

I bought my boat from a Dutch individual and through his Dutch agent which was quite professional. Having said that, the individual I bought my boat from bought a boat from another Dutch broker who did not do his due diligence and after taking possession of his new boat had the bank repossess the boat and the seller nowhere to be found. Last I heard he began legal proceedings and has since bought another boat.

That is why as a buyer one needs to confirm that the title to the vessel is free of liens before closing the transaction and exchanging funds. Perform your own validation of exchange of clean title, do NOT rely on others to do such, [e.g., a broker, either yours or the sellers]. If you want the vessel to be your boat then Captain-up and investigate and validate its clear title yourself. Liens are generally registered ["perfected"] with the government agency that issues the title document. By way of example, in the USA that is with a State agency if the vessel is titled by a State, or it is by the National Vessel Documentation Center administered by the United States Coast Guard, if the vessel is "flagged" in the USA. Note do not confuse US boat registration with the titling of the boat, they are separate functions and actions, and note that documenting of a boat is distinct from registering a boat in the USA.

Reference to useful lengthy guide regarding vessel financing in the Netherlands. Note that one needs to very knowledgeable about the country specific laws that apply as they differ between countries. Do not assume: Because as the saying goes, assuming can make an ASS out of U and ME.

https://www.loyensloeff.com/media/77...etherlands.pdf

[out42]

Apologies if this has already been covered but there is the question of VAT in the case of a no-deal Brexit. If there is no deal, you might pay VAT in Holland (already in the price of the boat) but then have to pay English VAT as well as import duty if you keep it in England. So you get hit twice. If I were you I would pause until after the 29th March so you will at least know where you are then. You may then be in a position to reclaim EU VAT (with an awful lot of luck) so you only pay VAT once. You will still pay Import tax if we've left.

[bushytales]

Hi...I’d take the loss and walk away...and learn from bitter experience...





In the process of trying to buy my first yacht in Holland and bring back to UK.

We agreed price in principle before viewing and the yacht was then not up to the high standard described by the broker. Not just cosmetic reasonable wear and tear, but damp forecabin with mould, holes in floorboards, cracks in galley worksurface. The broker was very unreasonable, switching suddenly from "this boat is perfect" to "you should expect that from a 13 year old boat". The seller was entirely reasonable and agreed to fix everything.

Now we are trying to agree the contract and survey. I have no reason to distrust the seller but I don't trust the broker an inch.

I agreed terms of the survey and sea-trial with the seller weeks ago and I want those terms (which resemble a UK standard contract) in our sale agreement. Essentially setting the expectation that issues identified by the surveyor must be rectified or renegotiated, otherwise the contract is void and I get my downpayment back. Then saying the sea-trial is a functional test of all gear and there is a 5pc retention against successful completion. As I said, the seller already said all this was agreeable.

The broker keeps sending me a draft contract that contains none of the above and holds me to the contractual payment unless the surveyor condemns the boat. I keep pushing it back and he just repeats the same: the surveyor is only "allowed" to review a, b and c that the broker has chosen, the sea trial is for engine only and everything else is as seen. So if we launch the boat and nav lights don't work, loos don't flush, winches don't work under load etc I am stuffed.

No explanation why the contract doesn't simply reflect the terms agreed already by the seller.

I am totally fed up. Subject to survey, the boat is fundamentally fine and the seller appears straightforward enough. But the broker is very obtuse and is at risk of making this fall through; I will then be out of pocket for four return flights and probably a surveyors bill.

What next? Do I sign and hope for the best? Or hold the line? Or give up?

Thanks in advance

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