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View Poll Results: Is a combination of rope and chain better than an all chain in heavy weather?
Yes 3 50.00%
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:44   #91
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fairleads and cleats

Having cut a number of lines by their rubbing against fairleads / bow roller, I now tie up without any contact between my lines and final point of attachment on the deck. It is not always easy to achieve but I sleep better. If you ask me to I will post a picture to illustrate this.
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Old 08-12-2008, 20:06   #92
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This thread points out one truth. 95% of the time, cruising boats are "anchored" in marina slips. The experiences detailed here explain why the 5% who were swinging in strange anchorages WISH they were getting a good nights sleep in a marina (or the motel up the street) too.

In storm conditions, A properly set anchor and it's rode usually do just fine. It's the deck hardware, cleats and such, that give way and tear out. A heavy weight (spring weight) attached to the anchor rode or chain about 2/3 of the way down to the anchor or mooring block works better than any rubber snubber type shock absorber..
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Old 08-12-2008, 23:13   #93
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Some opinions differ...

While I do prefer to keep my boat in a slip at home, when cruising I spend 95% of the nights at anchor. When family cruising, it's more like 67% of the time at anchor. (Actually, I just checked my log... my solo sailing last year was only 87.5% at anchor. Rough year, I guess.)

The reason for my record, of course, is that there simply aren't many places to dock in the regions I like to visit.

My experiences and the tales of club members suggest that anchor dragging and ::clear throat:: errors in practice are far more common than failures of deck fittings. Of course, that club is a university yacht club, with a high percentage of new sailors.
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Old 09-12-2008, 03:18   #94
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Originally Posted by skipperaris View Post
fairleads and cleats

Having cut a number of lines by their rubbing against fairleads / bow roller, I now tie up without any contact between my lines and final point of attachment on the deck. It is not always easy to achieve but I sleep better. If you ask me to I will post a picture to illustrate this.
please do ...
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:43   #95
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Originally Posted by Fair-Wind View Post
This thread points out one truth. 95% of the time, cruising boats are "anchored" in marina slips. The experiences detailed here explain why the 5% who were swinging in strange anchorages WISH they were getting a good nights sleep in a marina (or the motel up the street) too.
I estimated that in the 7 years I spent cruising, I anchored over 99% of the time, and only during 2 hurricanes, wished I was in motel.

In storm conditions, A properly set anchor and it's rode usually do just fine. It's the deck hardware, cleats and such, that give way and tear out. A heavy weight (spring weight) attached to the anchor rode or chain about 2/3 of the way down to the anchor or mooring block works better than any rubber snubber type shock absorber..
As cruising sailors know, anchoring methods are like....well, you know,everyone has there own.
I found that a weight hanging from an anchor rode, works in light to medium winds, and for keeping the rode out of the way of dink props. I have used up to 30#'s of weight, and when it starts blowing a hollie, the rode straightens out as if the weight wasn't there.
I believe there is no substitute for the shock absorbing of a nylon 3 strand rode, for absorbing shock loads, which tear anchors out.

Just my experiences. Oh, yeah, I have dragged anchor a number of times.
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Old 09-12-2008, 08:14   #96
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I agree with over40 - a weight alone is insufficient in anything except relatively calm conditions. I use an all-chain rode (led through the bow roller) with a nylon 3 strand bridle led through both bow chocks, down to a galvanized hook which attaches to the rode. One sets the anchor, attaches the hook to a link, lets out more rode, re-snubs the rode and then uses the two ends of the bridle to pull up the chain a few feet before cleating down the tails. Simple, strong, relatively chafe-free and with adequate stretch effectively spread over two lines (although for strength of attachment and simplicity, I use only one line fed through the hook in the same way one attaches a single line to the clew of a sail in order to have two equal sheets). Clear as mud?

Brad
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Old 09-12-2008, 09:59   #97
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95% of the time, 95% of the existing sailboats are on the hard, in marina slips or tied to marina maintained and inspected moorings...

If your anchor drags, it's because its too small or you didn't set it properly...
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Old 09-12-2008, 13:16   #98
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A friend and I teach the hurricane preparedness course for Coconut Grove Sailing Club in Miami which has 160 cruising boats that must evacuate the mooring field in hurricanes. 75 of our boats usually anchor in Miami's Marine Stadium which has reasonable protection and holding.

Once the wind gets up to 80-100 knots, as it did in hurricanes Katrina and Wilma, the boats 'sail' on their anchors and repeatedly tack wildly, shock loading the rode or chain and ripping out cleets, anchors and chaffing their rodes. The boats will actually, and I have witnessed the event, put their lee rails in the water as they travel the full length of the rode at hull speed. Boats on single anchors do not survive the repeated shock loading and double anchored boats have a significant loss rate because they can still 'sail' on their anchors unless the anchors are set at 180 deg from the bow (this is actually counter intuitive but works better than setting them at 120).

Experience has taught us that the key to survival is a minimum of three big anchors set from the bow at 120 degrees to each other. This semi-fixes the boats and prevents the high speed shock loading that is the real cause of the boats breaking loose.

What is big? If the West Marine anchoring charts show an anchor is the right size for your boat then it is at least one if not two sizes too small for a hurricane!

I prefer a mix of chain and rode and in hurricanes I shackle additional 100ft lengths of rode to the chain so that I have at least two rodes per anchor attached to strong points such as the cleets, mast and the primary winches, all with anti-chafe gear.

Up to 40 knots I have a single 125 lb Rochna on all chain with double 35 ft snubbers. Up to 50 knots I add a FX 55 Fortress with chain and rode set at least 150 deg apart.
Above 60 knots I add a 65 lb CQR as the third anchor and add sentinel weights to all the chain catenaries to help reduce shock loading. The last time I did this it took me 4 hours to get the anchors up and a further 4 hours to put my sails and bimini back up because if you do not get the sails down and they break loose then you will certainly not survive 100 knots.

What works works but my old friend and I have survived a total of 15 hurricanes, including Katrina and Wilma, in several different boats without any significant damage.

Phil
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Old 09-12-2008, 13:41   #99
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Two questions for Phil

Your experience sounds great, and I have a couple questions.

The first is about a sentinel weight I've seen described - using a 5 gallon bucket with a rope bridle to the rode. The benefit of the bucket over a conventional sentinel is the additional shock absorption as the bucket is accelerating vertically. Have you seen this in practice, and if so is the reality as good as the theory?

The second regards dinghies. How do you prepare your dinghy? A practice I've read is to sink it still tethered to the boat, but I've wondered if that is likely to put undo strain on the various fittings, though it may serve as a drogue to reduce tacking at the anchor.
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Old 09-12-2008, 13:43   #100
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Originally Posted by SV Upside Down View Post
A friend and I teach the hurricane preparedness course ...
Once the wind gets up to 80-100 knots, as it did in hurricanes Katrina and Wilma, the boats 'sail' on their anchors and repeatedly tack wildly, shock loading the rode or chain...
Boats on single anchors do not survive the repeated shock loading and double anchored boats have a significant loss rate because they can still 'sail' on their anchors unless the anchors are set at 180 deg from the bow (this is actually counter intuitive but works better than setting them at 120).
Experience has taught us that the key to survival is a minimum of three big anchors set from the bow at 120 degrees to each other. This semi-fixes the boats and prevents the high speed shock loading that is the real cause of the boats breaking loose...
Phil
Indeed ...
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Old 09-12-2008, 14:30   #101
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95% of the time, 95% of the existing sailboats are on the hard, in marina slips or tied to marina maintained and inspected moorings...
I think you might be right if you're talking about boats. If you're talking about cruisers I'd say 95% anchor all the time. I cruise six months a year and during that time am in a marina 2 nights. Most of my friends do the same. Very few can afford to stay in marinas. As for anchoring, it takes a bit of time to get good at it and the sad truth is that some never get good at it. This provides the entertainment in an anchorage (as long as they don't anchor near you) especially in the BVI where a lot of charterers who are "first time anchorers" get to learn the art of anchoring.
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Old 09-12-2008, 16:38   #102
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Quote:
Is a combination of rope and chain better than an all chain in heavy weather?

YES, YES, YES.. and to understand why, you should have a look at:

Tuning an Anchor Rode:
http://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/sail.htm

Quote:
Fair-Winds : A heavy weight (spring weight) attached to the anchor rode or chain about 2/3 of the way down to the anchor or mooring block works better than any rubber snubber type shock absorber..


This is also explained into AL’s software and we fully agree with the comments of « OVER40PIRATE «

Quote:
a weight hanging from an anchor rode works in light to medium winds, and for keeping the rode out of the way of dink props. I have used up to 30#'s of weight, and when it starts blowing a hollie, the rode straightens out as if the weight wasn't there.
Quote:
I believe there is no substitute for the shock absorbing of a nylon 3 strand rode, for absorbing shock loads, which tear anchors out.
One of the secrets is also to have a storm anchor dismounted in the bilge, oversized, and that you can use in very specific occasions – If you make a Google search on storm or tempest anchors, you will note that they are very few alternatives

João Nodari
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Old 09-12-2008, 16:44   #103
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Chaffing Gear

Though my sailing and anchoring experience in storms is limited to thunderstorms, I have considerable experience with rigging chafing gear in industrial applications that resemble boat conditions, and these ideas have been tested for 17 years on my dock lines... which are 17 years old and doing fine.

I have engineered numerous systems for securing floating pumps and pipes in marine applications using nylon rope. Typically the rope must pass over rocks and such and is subject to continuous surge in open water for years at a time. We have learned that if we cover the friction spots with hollow nylon webbing (BlueWater 2-Inch Climb-Spec Tubular Webbing at REI.com or other equivalent) (not poyester), the webbing sticks to the rough edge and all of the motion is nylon -on-nylon, which results in zero wear. Normally it is not necasary to secure the webbing - it grabs and stays in place. If you do secure it, secure it to the rough spot, not the line.

And for only $1.00-$2.00 per unit. Nothing else works as well, including prurchased gear or anything we could fabricate.

Although this would be awkward to apply at mid-line, it is smple for bridles and chain snubers.

Anchoring is as variable as the bottom, the boat and the storm. Great posts.
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Old 10-12-2008, 03:48   #104
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Amgine,

Never used the bucket and I doubt the handle can handle the loads. In the past I have used 25 lb mushroom anchors from West which have weight and surface area.

Dinghy...I doubt that the fittings would hold. Best place for it is inside the concrete steel reinforced bar/restaurant, at least 30 ft above sea level, where I like to be in hurricanes. I watched Wilma hit 12 moored boats from the 18th floor of a hotel behind hurricane windows. Those boats tacked and shock loaded their rodes every 30-60 seconds until their double 5/8 penants failed after about 2 hours.

Phil
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Old 10-12-2008, 06:08   #105
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When deploying a sea anchor during a hurricane at sea you offset, if I recall correctly, the rode by attaching a line from the rode, forward of the bow down the line about 50', to a point aft of the mast, offsetting the vessel approximately 50 degrees to the wind.

Will this technique work at anchor in a big blow to prevent shock loading and sailing?
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