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View Poll Results: Is a combination of rope and chain better than an all chain in heavy weather?
Yes 3 50.00%
No 3 50.00%
Voters: 6. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 27-10-2003, 19:41   #61
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Aye, Troubledour:

Ya are talking about getting a wooden boat, ain't ya..?

Here is a couple of observations from experience.......

I bought my first boat in 1985, in the tropics.
She was wood. Double planked mahogeny, teak deak, spruce frames, etc.
A beautye for sure.

If she had stayed in Maine, (Or Norway, Alaska, Newfoundland, etc.)
she would have lived to be an old lady.

Fact is that wooden boats don't do warm water very well.
If ya are planning to cruise way North or way South, good idea, get an old woodie. If ya are planning for the tropics however, hmm, roll up yer sleeves, ya'll be busy keeping the wood eating worms away..Then the rot from fresh water and tropical rain-showers.. That will rot yer ship, salt water will pickle it...
Back in Norway in the old days, the old fishermen would throw salt in the bilge, and the boats last 100 years...
In the tropics however ya need more than salt to keep a wooden boat alive and happy...
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Old 28-10-2003, 07:38   #62
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Tropics

I would visit, but not linger, in the tropics. Seems the older I get the more intolerant of heat I get & I actually don't mind winter weather. (driving among the typically unskilled I mind, the weather itself no problem)

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Old 28-10-2003, 21:44   #63
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Intolerant of heat?

Aye, Mr. Troubledor, the remedy on a cruising boat in the tropics is of course to jump in the drink.

Between the cold beers...

So, uh don't sweat it, just sail down to the, islands, take it off and enjoy life as God intended it too be..

See ya donw there.
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Old 29-10-2003, 10:13   #64
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CSY Man

I'll get there ... in a creeky old wooden thing that (much like myself) requires too much time, effort & money.

BTW, if you haven't found it yet ...

Cruisers Forum > Cruising Equipment > Marine Software, Computers & Charts > To Each His/Her/It's Own

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Old 30-10-2003, 00:11   #65
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Ya were right, I missed it, but went over there and read it, thanks.

CM
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Old 04-01-2004, 21:42   #66
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Stede,
Simple answer is "catenary" the more chain U have out the less it snatches. Rope snubbers only prevent damage to the bow of your boat by the chain & lessen the noise. Chain is always better (if U can carry enough) because its bloody stronger. Forget all the verbal diahorrea. Regards Setia
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Old 05-01-2004, 19:20   #67
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Setia,

Sounds like good sound advice. My primary anchor on my 26 footer is a combination chair/rope rode. When I upgrade to a larger boat, the primary rode will be all chain.

Fair winds to you!
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Old 06-01-2004, 03:20   #68
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SETIA said;
"Simple answer is "catenary" the more chain U have out the less it snatches."
This is true.

However:
Once the anchor chain is drawn tight (no catenary left), it provides no shock absorption. Here is where the snubber becomes useful. I think I’ve previously mentioned the designed-in “weak link” principle; wherein the snubber also provides a heavy load warning when/if it breaks.

I've mentioned this excellent site elsewhere, but it bears repeating. It really covers this subject.
http://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/rode/rode.htm

Rather than a single "right" answer, I think the many principles discussed herein can provide us with the understanding required to select the best (better) combinations of equipment to deal with the many differing situations we'll face.

Lots of good ideas!

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Old 24-03-2004, 15:30   #69
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Anchoring

Over the past 32 years I've used nylon in BC waters and chain and more recently stainless wire rope in the tropics .This rolls onto a deck mounted reel winch. For a snubber I have an eye every 50 ft in the wire rope and attach a length of poly rope, which floats clear of the coral ,in the tropics.I also put a small float on the end of the wire to keep it clear of the bottom in the tropics. Where there is a light dusting of sand over hard coral I've swam down with a 5/8th eye bolt and a hammer, tapped it in the bottom until I found a crevice and hamered the pin in, then tied it to my anchor.Pulling it up vertically pulls the works out.
The only really strong mooring attachment is a mooring bitt, running thru the deck to a second attachment point welll below deck, putting a bending load on the mooring post rather than a bending load on the deck. Mine has a sheer strength of 90 tons.Chocks have to be at least as strong as your strongest mooring line, or they will break and let your line find something to cut itself on.
In a hurricane in flat relatively sheltered water , mooring from the stern drastically reduces the load on mooring gear.The reason is that a boat moored from the bow sails around her anchor, coming beam on to the wind, and chafing her gear ,whereas a boat moored from the stern lays like a dead duck in the water and remains stern to, a fraction of the windage and momentum of a boat sailing around her mooring and often comming nearly beam on to the wind.This is also true of lying to a drogue at sea.
On a return trip from Tonga to BC last spring, I tried a parachute drogue. It looked like nylon, felt like nylon, and was cotton. It lasted less than an hour in 45 knots of wind. I went for a tire with the top half of the rubber cut away, the wire core left to tie to and the works turned inside out. That worked well.
One of my 36 footers bent a half inch plate bow roller like a, pretzel when she was being winched off a Baja Beach in 8 ft surf.
With double rollers I now weld a piece of 3/4 inch shaft from the centre plate to one of the side plates to keep it from bending.I also make sure the front of the bow roller slopes foreward to stop the rode from jumping out when the boat comes beam on to the wind.Using a piece of chain between the boat and the end of the line eliminates chafe there.
Brent Swain
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Old 25-03-2004, 07:18   #70
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Chafe gear

I'll try not to get into the discussion about anchors and rode (I used a 22 lb Delta, 100 ft of chain and 200 ft of nylon on a 30-foot, 12000 lb boat - never let me down in 10,000 miles and 12 countries), but I will weigh in on chafe guard. I've tried it all and have found what looks to be the best. It's UHMW-PE - basically fabric that is stronger than Kevlar. I've used several for 2 years now, but only for modest anchoring - the next cruise will be a true test. I did use it during Hurricane Isabel (I stayed aboard and watched it carefully) and found nearly no chafe, even though my lines didn't lead fair. We had winds on the beam pushing us into the dock with 2-3 foot chop on a heavy 44 footer. The stuff took a lot of abuse. My wife says she absolutely can't cut it - she has to use a hot knife.

This place sell it and it's not too expensive - I think West might sell it too:
http://hsarmor.com/htm/chafeprice.htm

Of course, there's more to the story than external chafe. Nylon, under severe loads, begins to build up heat internally due to friction between the fibers during stretching. A study a few years ago by MIT found that wet nylon outlasted dry nylon in storm conditions because it tended to cool the fibers. Good news in a tropical storm where it usually rains.

Polyester stretches far less and therefore doesn't build up heat to the same extent. It also chafes much less than nylon. One way to take advantage of this is to use a length of polyester through the anchor roller (with chafeguard attached) to your nylon rode (with lots of chain too).

I'm considering my next system. I may use polyester line instead of nylon (and still a Delta, only bigger). I know there's not much stretch, but with 100 feet of chain down, I don't need it as much. The strongest winds I've ever anchored in was during a Papagayo gale in Costa Rica with winds around 50-60 knots all night. The nylon line stretched so much it was almost comical (if it hadn't been so tense) how thin it got. It acted like a giant rubber band during the gusts and there were times I thought it would break from the shock loads. And it caused the boat to sail at anchor more which is even harder on the anchoring system. Having polyester would have given me the advantage of less "bouncing" and less chafe. With the chain's caternary, there still would have been enough shock absorbtion. Plus I like the way polyester line flakes and feeds out without hockles.

No matter what, I will be using my new chafeguard.
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Old 25-03-2004, 08:13   #71
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Nylon

I believe that the US Navy switched from Nylon to polyester after having four seamen killed by the recoil from breaking nylon. They also reviewed the splice and it is now done a bit differently than the samson guide. Michael Casling
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Old 25-03-2004, 08:40   #72
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Tenknots,

Do you use the velcro or sewn version. I know that velcro looses it's holding power when wet. But, with velcro it would be much easier to place.

Woody
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Old 26-03-2004, 05:57   #73
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Chafe Guard

I use the velcro, but learned the hard way that there is more than one type. For something like this, you need the best. We used 1-inch Velro brand along the length and it has never come open. We used some cheap stuff on another one and the generic velcro came apart. I learned long ago to always use the best stuff on our boat, especially ground tackle, but my cheap side rears its ugly head now and then and I end up paying more.

I don't think velcro loses much holding power wet, at least not the good stuff. But our chafe guard also has grommets on the ends to securely tie to the line, which we do for anything over moderate conditions.
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Old 28-08-2004, 06:04   #74
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Match Rode to Load NOT to Anchor ?

Anchoring Essentials - Choosing the right ground tackle for blue-water cruisers
by Mark Smaalders
(Blue Water Sailing 4/1999)

http://www.boats.com/content/default...bJEzgux9bLSTdm|101964894939520502/170924118/6/7001/7001/7002/7002/7001/-1


During my years of cruising the Pacific, I have met many long-distance cruisers lacking a good understanding of the essentials of anchoring. Over the course of a few months' stay in the Bay of Islands, New Zealand, I helped rescue no less than six sailboats that had dragged their anchors and were setting rapidly toward rocks or shore with no one on board. All were voyaging boats, some worth many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and all well worth the extra thought and preparation it would have taken to ensure that they did not wander off while their owners were ashore.

Ground tackle need not be absurdly large or complex: 99 percent of the time, I anchor my 35-foot (10.5 m.) sloop on a single 33-pound (10-kg.) anchor with 5/16-inch (8mm) chain. Heed what we consider to be "anchoring essentials," and you should enjoy many peaceful nights on the hook.
Anchor weights

Selection of a working anchor begins with a simple rule-of-thumb: Plow-type anchors (such as the CQR, Delta and Bruce) should generally weigh about 1 pound per foot (1.5 kgs./m.) of boat length. Pivoting-fluke anchors, such as the Danforth, can be slightly lighter, say 1 pound per foot (1.5 kg./m.) of waterline length. Fisherman or yachtsman anchors should be heavier, about 2 pounds per foot (3 kg./m.) of waterline length. This simple approach to anchor selection is surprisingly effective, but, whenever possible, check the results against wind loadings and actual anchor holding figures.

The loads placed on anchor and rode are a function of current, waves, and wind, with the latter being the most significant in most situations. All these loads vary with the type and size of your boat. While calculating precise wind-pressure loadings generated by various boats is laborious, good estimates of drag due to wind have been calculated for various boat lengths (see sidebar on windloading). Many anchor manufacturers and some independent sources have conducted anchor holding tests, and their figures can be compared to the loadings.

Beware, however, as anchor holding ability, and the holding figures manufacturers and others come up with, can vary dramatically with the bottom characteristics. The truth is, an anchor that may hold your boat securely in gale-force winds on a sand bottom may be all but useless in areas with rock or kelp; not surprisingly, some manufacturers don't tell you this.

Anchor arsenals

Quantity: The best way to ensure that you can anchor securely in a variety of bottom types is to carry more than one anchor. While the smallest day-sailing boats and trailer-sailors — typically using their anchors for lunch stops — can get by with one anchor, most boats should carry more.

Small coastal cruisers — say around 20 or 25 feet (6 m. to 7.5 m.) LOA — will want a minimum of one working anchor and a kedge, with the kedge a bit smaller and preferably of a different type. Many sailors choose a plow for their main anchor, and a pivoting-fluke anchor, or smaller plow of a different type, for the kedge.

Larger coastal cruisers, or small boats that venture far afield, should carry two different types of working anchors and a kedge. This ensures a remaining working anchor should the other be lost, gives a choice of anchors to use on different bottoms, and increases anchoring options in bad weather or tricky anchorages.

Type: How should you select the types of anchors you will carry? Consider where you will sail, and the bottom types you're likely to encounter.

Plow: In general, plows make effective all-around anchors, good in mud and sand; I have found the Bruce to also be quite effective in coral. Any plow is likely to have trouble getting to the bottom if there is a lot of kelp.

Fisherman: In such conditions, a fisherman anchor is probably the best choice, and these are generally good for rocky bottoms as well.

Pivoting fluke: These anchors are very effective in clean sand and hard mud bottoms, but may drag easily in soft mud, and are even worse than plows in coping with kelp. The best way to choose an anchor for your conditions is to talk to other sailors, particularly those who cruise and anchor a lot, and find out what works for them.

Storm anchor: While many long-distance cruisers carry a large storm anchor (approximately double the weight of their working anchors), in addition to two working anchors and kedge, my own approach has been to simply add a third anchor of similar size to the working anchor collection. Why? My anchors are all of different types: a fisherman, a Bruce, a CQR, and a Danforth kedge, allowing me to select a working anchor for almost any bottom. Being of similar size and strength, the rodes and shackles are interchangeable. All the anchors are easily handled — in the water, on deck or in the dinghy — and none pose the stowage problem that a 70- or 80-pound (32-kg. to 36-kg.) storm anchor would. Used in combination, these anchors will provide incredible holding power, and they can be set to hold my boat securely — even when wind clocks around quickly from different directions, as might happen during a hurricane. Finally, by placing reliance on separate anchors and rodes, I have invested in considerable chafe insurance, chafing of anchor rodes being a major cause of problems during hurricanes and severe storms.

Rodes and Gear

Having selected the anchors suitable for your boat, be sure to match them with appropriate rodes and terminal gear. The chart of projected loads is quite useful when selecting the line, chain, and shackles to use with your chosen anchor. There is no point in carrying an anchor that will provide 2,000 pounds of holding power if your rode cannot carry the strain.
*Note 1 The chart lists actual loads, incorporating no safety factors; make sure to select equipment based on the safe working load, and not the breaking strength. Never buy shackles, swivels, or any other anchor gear, if breaking strength or safe working load figures are not available. You might save a few dollars, but buying inferior gear places your boat, and perhaps your life, at risk.

Rode: Using my own boat as an example, the anchor and rode would be selected as follows. Boat length is 35 feet (10.6 m.). According to the rule-of-thumb, working anchor (plow) weight should be 35 x 1 = 35 pounds (10.6 x 1.5 =16 kgs.). The chart shows a loading, in winds of 42 knots, of 1,800 pounds (818 kgs.). The safe working load (s.w.l.) of your rode should equal or exceed this, and indicates 5/16-inch (8mm) chain, with a s.w.l. of 1,900 pounds (864 kgs.) and/or 5/8-inch (16mm) line, whose s.w.l. is 2,440 pounds (1,109 kgs.).

Shackles and Swivels: Shackles can be the weak link; a 5/16-inch shackle has an s.w.l. of only 1,500 pounds, so a size larger (3/8-inch, 2,000-pound s.w.l.) should be used. The pin of an anchor shackle will typically fit chain one size smaller. It's good practice to fit a swivel between anchor and rode; this should also be one size larger than the chain.

Is it prudent to use the wind loading at 42 knots? What happens in a severe storm, where winds may equal or exceed 60 knots? Decide first if you may ever have to anchor in such conditions. Ocean voyagers should be prepared to cope with such conditions. Now base your decision on your anchoring strategy. If you intend to place primary reliance in storm conditions on one large anchor, the rode should definitely be sized to cope with 60-knot winds. If you will be relying on two or more anchors used in combination on separate rodes, then the rode for those anchors can be based on the lower 42-knot figures.

Chain or rope: Should you use chain or rope? Both have much to recommend them, and the decision is perhaps best based on your boat and where you cruise. Because chain is much heavier, if anchorages in your area are deep, the weight of chain these require may tip the balance to rope. In addition to its light weight, rope has the advantage of built-in elasticity, and it will absorb shock loadings from wind and waves. On the downside, rope is much more easily abraded. In addition, the scope required — the ratio of rode paid out to water depth — with rope is much greater: use 7:1 with rope, and about half that with chain.

My own solution is based on the conflicting needs of good abrasion resistance — due to the abundance of coral in South Pacific anchorages — reasonable weight (my boat is already heavily laden with cruising gear), and the ability to anchor in deep water — some anchorages in the Solomon Islands, where I cruised recently, exceed 75 feet (23 m.) in depth. I have chosen to use 160 feet (48 m.) of chain, which is spliced to 330 feet (100 m.) of rope. This means that when the water depth is 45 feet (14 m.) or less (which is most of the time) I can anchor on all chain. In deeper water, I pay out all of my chain a well as some rope.

How much rope? In light conditions, I use a length of line equal to the water depth, thus keeping the line clear of the bottom. When the wind pipes up I pay out additional scope, to equal about 5:1. In 70 feet (21 m.) of water, I pay out all the chain, adding about 70 feet of rope to this in light winds. In strong winds, I pay out 190 feet (58 m.) of rope, for a combined length of rope and chain of 350 feet (106 m.). This still leaves 140 feet (42 m.) of rope in the anchor locker should yet more scope be needed. Having a splice between chain and line means the rode can be paid out or taken in without interruption.

Second and third working anchors should typically be set up with short lengths of chain (approximately equal to the boat's waterline length) spliced or shackled to rope. For working anchors, use a length of line six to seven times as long as your boat, adding to this if anchorages in your area are deep. I use the same formula for kedge warps.
Strongpoints and Accessories

Cleats and bitts: While anchors and rode constitute the essence of your anchoring gear some additional elements are also vital. First among these are the cleats or bitts to which your rode will be secured. Always use one of the above, and never rely on your windlass to secure your anchor line or chain. Ensure that the attachment point is as strong as you can make it. If you rely on deck cleats, they should be large and bolted-through the deck with large backing plates below. The bitter end of the rode should be equally well secured, somewhere in the chain locker, preferably by a heavy lashing, which can be cut in an emergency.

Snubbers: An anchor snubber is a must for those who anchor on all chain. The function of the snubber is to ease shock loads on your rode, which can be very high when anchored in rough conditions. The snubber consists of a nylon line (equal in size to your rode) that is secured to the chain by means of a rolling-hitch or chain hook. The line should be at least 20 feet (6 m.) long. Mine is now 40 feet (12 m.), after I broke a shorter snubber while anchored off a mid-ocean reef with waves breaking over the bow. I typically pay out only 8 or 10 feet (3 m.) of line, but in rough conditions, easing out another 20 feet (6 m.) does wonders. Make sure you secure the chain to your bitts or cleats independently of the snubber, in case the latter breaks. A yacht failed to do this in Fiji when I was there, and ended up as kindling on the reef.

The rough conditions that call for use of a snubber can also have your rode jumping off the anchor roller or out of the bow chocks. This can result in damage to deck, bowsprit, and gear, as well as greatly accelerated chafe. The remedy is simple: Rollers should be fitted with bails, and chocks should be closed to ensure that the rode stays where it should. Don't forget to add some chafe protection — leather or heavy hose — at the point your line or snubber passes over the chock or through the roller.

Trip-line: A small buoy and about 70 feet (21 m.) of 6-mm line is your final piece of essential gear. This is a trip-line, which can be attached to the crown of the anchor and used to help free it should the anchor become jammed in rocks or coral. It can be left in the locker if you're sure the bottom is good mud or sand, but if there is a chance it is foul, rig the trip-line.

American Mark Smaalders, a yacht designer, and his partner Kim Des Rochers, an environmentalist specializing in Micronesian issues, are in the midst of an open-ended world cruise aboard their 35-foot wood sloop Nomad out of Honolulu, Hawaii. In the May issue, Part II will address choice of anchorage, setting and retrieving the anchor, and anchoring variations.

Wind-loading and Ground Tackle

Wind-loading varies with a boat's windage. Boats with low freeboard and cabins and single masts will have lower wind-loadings than boxy ketches or schooners. Wind pressure varies as the square of the wind speed, which is why the estimated wind loads for my 35-foot sloop jump so alarmingly with higher wind speeds: 225 pounds in a 15-knot breeze becomes 900 pounds in 30 knots of wind and 1,800 pounds when it pipes up to 42 knots.

The following chart is based on estimates of wind drag developed by the American Boat and Yacht Council; if your boat deviates considerably from the average, you may wish to adjust the figures slightly, up or down.
Anchor loadings by boat length/wind strength

LOA : 25' Ft 30 Ft 35 Ft 42 Ft 50 Ft
15 Kts Wind 125# 175# 225# 300# 400# Load
30 Kts Wind 490# 700# 900# 1,200# 1,600#
42 Kts Wind 980# 1,400# 1,800# 2,400# 3,200#
60 Kts Wind 1,960# 2,800# 3,600# 4,800# 6,400#

Day-sailing boats and small trailer-sailors may wish to base loads on 30-knot winds, but all other cruising boats should use the 42-knot wind loadings for their working anchor. Some long-distance cruisers use the 60-knot wind figures, but I suggest using those figures only for a storm anchor — and keeping the working anchor and rode to a more manageable size.

article ends

GORD’s NOTES:
1 Remember 42 Knots of wind is approximately equivalent to 49 Miles Per Hour.

2 This entirely misses the point of why we up-size our anchor(s)! The boats wind drag don’t change - The holding quality of the bottom changes. An oversized anchor is intended to carry the boats wind load, even when the bottom doesn’t allow the anchor to achieve it’s maximum holding power.

The author’s 35 Foot boat has an approximate wind load of 1800# at 42 Kts wind - and utilizes a 35# Plow Anchor c/w 5/16" chain & 5/8" rope rode combination.

What would change if he increased his anchor size to 44 Lbs. Assuming the same 42 Kt wind force, he’d still have about 1800 Lbs of loading on his anchor assembly, but his anchor would be much more likely to actually achieve that required holding power. Remember, anchors seldom achieve their theoretical holding power, in the real world.

If he increased his anchor rode sizes to match a 45# anchor size, he would be carrying (approx.) twice the weight in chain, and significantly reducing the shock absorbency (stretch) of his rope (plus higher cost).

IMHO:
Carry the LARGEST anchor(s) practical.
Match the Anchor Rode to the anticipated Wind Loads - not to the anchor size.


San Francisco Anchor Test:
http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Stud...nchortest1.htm

FWIW
Gord
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Old 29-08-2004, 04:33   #75
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Cruisers,
There has been much discussion on anchors, rodes, chain, ect. and while on the subject of anchoring. Our current boat, 32 Bayfield cutter sails very well on the hook with it's cut away forefoot keel and long sprit. I have built a riding sail out of an old mainsail 10'x9'x6' in hopes that at least it will slow it's motion but have yet had the chance to give it a try? If this size proves to work well I thought I would have one made. At least for now I have no $ invested until I get the size that works best correct if at all?
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