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View Poll Results: Is a combination of rope and chain better than an all chain in heavy weather?
Yes 3 50.00%
No 3 50.00%
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Old 03-10-2003, 14:54   #31
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Sea Anchors

Might maybe have started a new thread but this is in the area of "Heavy Weather Anchoring", so here goes ...

Any comments about sea anchors or drogues ? The conditions in which they're best used, types, tips for proper deployment, experiences with, etc.

Thanks, Troubledour
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Old 04-10-2003, 02:28   #32
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Talking See Troob-I don't REALLY ignore you

Read a book a loooong time back called " Heavey Weather Sailing" but can't remember the authors name. One of his techniques in these conditions was to ' STREAM WARPS" ya-ya, I know -what-za warp? This guy called ropes warps, why I have no idea. Anyhoo, he would stream them aft to hold bow to wind. He would attach both ends to the boat so the "Warp" would stream ina u-shape. Used anchor rodes for it, the worse the weather, the more warps. I have seen sea anchor ads,and have heard of people using chunks of board and read of a person or two using the pilot chutes of parachutes as a drag.
"WARP FACTOR TWO, MR. SULU- THIS IS A REAL DRAG"
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Old 04-10-2003, 04:05   #33
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Re: See Troob-I don't REALLY ignore you

"Heavy Weather Sailing" by K. Adlard Coles & Peter Bruce, is the classic text on storm tactics. Written over 30 years ago, I understand (but have not seen) that it was updated in 1999 or so.

It's a great book! Suggest anyone going off-shore (and CERTAINLY those contemplating long-distance passagemaking) read the book.

A "warp" is a HEAVY line, usually used to move (pull or tow) a vessell into place. "Warping" is the actioon (V.T.).

Warps & Drogues: In this application (running), you tow a heavy line, shaped in a "U" (belayed at both stern quarters) , to slow the boat down, preventing tripping or pitch-poling.

Sea-Anchors: Stream fronm the bow to keep head to wind.

Encountering conditions wherein it's necessary to tow a warp, drogue, or sea anchor, would indicate to me:
1) I'm on very BIG water (Pacific Ocean etc)
2) I'm on a ill-conceived passage.

These are truly tactics used in extremis!

Quote:
29cascadefixer once whispered in the wind:
Read a book a loooong time back called " Heavey Weather Sailing" but can't remember the authors name. One of his techniques in these conditions was to ' STREAM WARPS" ya-ya, I know -what-za warp? This guy called ropes warps, why I have no idea.
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Old 04-10-2003, 05:54   #34
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Mr.T,

I've never had the occasion to use either a sea anchor,or a drogue. I guess that's a good thing,because I don't have either one Sailing offshore on my 26 footer,I always figured I would rely on the "cork theory" in extreme conditons.The trips I've done though didn't involve crossing major oceans where unexpected storm systems are more likely.I always thought that when I eventually take off to sail the "great blue sea", I would make sure I had these devices on board.When I was attending a class to help me prepare for taking the Captains exam,the instructor had an opposing viewpoint that has left me reconsidering some of the use for them.He owned a Pacific Seacraft 40ft.cutter. He had done some long range water sailing">blue water sailing and was an advocate against using sea anchors.His assessment was that the concept itself was good, but that the forces exerted on a boats hardware in extreme weather was so excessive that most boats couldn't withstand it.He said he had seen almost the complete removal of part of a boats bow from using a sea anchor,as well as some other similar damages to boats.He had no problem with the use of drogues because the forces exerted were not near extreme as though applied to the attachment point of a sea anchor rode to the boat. I don't know what the answer is to this dilemma is, but it gave me something to think about.I always thought that before I take off, I'll spend some time talking with other blue water sailors to get their input.Just my $.02 worth.
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Old 04-10-2003, 20:16   #35
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Stede

More than $.02 worth, I think. The structural integrity of fittings & their attachments is something that I'll be looking at as I shop for boats. This seems only reasonable to me, I might be too old to stress the structure as I "entertain" a g/f while tied to the dock or a mooring but the power of nature has to be respected & allowed for. i.e. Don't load fittings beyond some certain percentage of their design capacity & current condition/strength.

I once worked a long-term contract in a mechanical research lab (turned into 5 yrs before it was done with) & part of my job was to design & build test bed set-ups that would contain the forces anticipated. (the rest of the job was to design & machine or otherwise fabricate just about anything else required by the lab). Put another way, if a test ripped itself out of it's bed & roll-hopped across the floor & through a wall, I'm the one that got dirty looks. Matter of fact, as an undeniable inducement, my office & machine shop was located directly in the path of a well-powered torque roll from the line of running test beds.

I think people might be surprised by how little it takes to fail an apparently stout structure ... no chain is any stronger than it's weakest link.

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Old 14-10-2003, 18:30   #36
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Cool

Hi, all

I sailed my former boat, Batwing, across the Pacific from Seattle to Hong Kong 1976-1981. Took the scenic route, and spent years at it.

Batwing displaces 18000 pounds. We used all chain rode, 300' 3/8" BBB, and 45 pound CQR plows for primary anchors. Never dragged an anchor. We rigged a snubber using the 5/8" nylon that we used for mooring and anchoring line.

These days, I'd use G4 chain, instead of BBB chain, as it seems to be well accepted now.

I sold the boat. It has since been around the world, and I was invited to come for a visit by the newest owners. (see http://www.geocities.com/batwingsy/) It still has the same anchors, same chain, same bow roller, same masts, booms, yards, and battens. The same masts is interesting, because they were unstayed grown fir sticks. Still junk-schooner rigged, still flying 768 sq ft. of sail.

But, I digress. The bow roller was massive, made out of 1/4" stainless steel plate. It wasn't electropolished, and it looks even worse now than when it was bolted to the deck for the first time.
But, if you rammed a destroyer with it, I'd look for a hole in the destroyer. My old Seatiger 555 windlass is still on the boat, and still working, despite having a bicycle chain drive for gearing.

27 years of voyaging, and this gear is still all there and in use. I did snap the chain, once. I was setting sail under anchor, and I guess 4 1/2 knots was more than the chain could take. I recovered the lost chain and anchor by dragging a small grapnel behind the dingy till I found the chain.
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Old 15-10-2003, 02:45   #37
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Tim:
You snapped the chain, when sailing off anchor!
Now, that speakes to a well-set anchor!

Please confirm that it was the chain that broke, and not an accessory (shackle, swivel, or etc.) Can I suppose that the snubber had already been removed?

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Old 15-10-2003, 03:23   #38
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good hook alright

I've been trying to figger that one out myself, then again, the only anchors I've ever used were mushroom anchors in mud (well, a couple of well used outboards too, but those would be different posts).



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Old 15-10-2003, 08:51   #39
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I could be wrong, obviously, but I bet Tim meant to say "setting anchor undersail"...A running Moor has been known to break things...many things...

I don't know how, sailing off an anchor, you could get up enough momentuem to snap the chain?...You'd only have at the most a couple hundred feet of running room, and I don't think you could build up enough spped to create a shock load that would come anywhere near what would be required to break a 3/8" chain, even with out a snubber,especially on a 18,000 disp 34 foot boat... Thats the size of Tim's the Batwings and my boat the Faithful ... She has a 35lb CQR as bower, with 300' 3/8 chain and I just don't think sailing off the anchor I could physically break it if I tried, no matter how well set the anchor,unless the chain was bad...I've sail around the anchor for mucho grande tiempo, proving a good set...

Well, come on Tim...what up? Did the chain break setting anchor of sailing off it? Inquiring Minds want to know.

Thanks...
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Old 15-10-2003, 17:51   #40
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Drogue Information

Investigation of The Use of Drogues To Improve The Safety of Sailing Yachts ... by U.S. Coast Guard, Groton, CT

http://www.sailrite.com/droguereport.htm

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Old 16-10-2003, 05:49   #41
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USCG Drogue Report

Troubledour offers an excellent link to Drougue Information, which bears repeating:
http://www.sailrite.com/droguereport.htm

I highly recommend that anyone considering offshore passagemaking read this very informative USCG Report in it’s entirety.

A couple of points, that I found noteworthy:
[my summary can NOT take the place of reading the report, but might hopefully induce your interest in doing so]

1. The tests clearly showed that a drogue deployed from the stern can pull the boat through the breaking wave crest without capsize.
With the drogue deployed from the stern, the model lay stern to wind and sea.

2. When the same drogue (or Sea Anchor) was deployed from the bow, the bow tended to fall off...

3. For smaller boats, (perhaps under 15,000 Lbs), the maximum design load seems to approximate the displacement.
Eg: The design load for Drogue & Attachments for a 10,000# Displacement boat was
about 10,000 Lbs, utilizing a 3/4" Nylon Double Braid towline (they reduced the required rope safety factor, due to the infrequent usage anticipated).
This seems to support the previously discussed "HEAVY LOADING" that this equipment might impose upon the boat.

The report contains a wealth of general & specific information, including recommendations for the design of drogues (Series design recommended over single Parachute).

Thanks for the link, Troubledour!

Regards,
Gord
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Old 16-10-2003, 08:03   #42
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My Pleasure, Gord

I printed & filed it as a check against it's being pulled offline & have a digital copy as well. Based on that report I've decided that a drogue suitable to whatever I end up with will be aboard & deployable before I attempt as much as a Gulf passage. Particular attention will be paid to cleats & their surrounding structures as well.

Call me chicken, lazy barrel rolls through the sky are great fun but barrel rolls in a sailboat would just about have to be as unfun as it gets. I can't really see allowing that when fairly simple & straightforward alternatives are available.

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Old 16-10-2003, 09:19   #43
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Troubledour:
Are you considering the recommended SERIES drogue, as outlined in the report?

I'd be very interested in hearing about your experience deploying & retrieving it, once you acquired & practiced with it (I know, not likely real soon).

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Old 16-10-2003, 10:34   #44
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Yes, I have no problem with assuming that coasties know more about this than I do, even without controlled testing. I didn't see anything in that report that didn't make good sense & I thought they justified their conclusions fairly decisively. So, a series drogue it'll be.

As for deployment/retrieval I'm assuming that simply chucking it or even feeding it off the stern will be a bit easier than retrieval. What I have pictured on recovery is a wide 180, then hauling her in as the line slacks. When I actually try that I'll let y'all know what goes wrong.



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Old 17-10-2003, 03:42   #45
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Gotta love Troubledour's attitude - "what" goes wrong (not "if"). He, obviously, understands the implications of "Murphy".

This whole discussion raises excellent questions regarding "what are the characteristics of a boat suitable for offshore passagemaking".

The accumulation of "stuff" that is recommended (& required) for offshore work, quickly surpasses the ability of most "smaller" boats to carry it (space to store, & volume to support weight)

Sounds like another thread...

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