Have You Crossed an Ocean in a Cruiser and a Cruiser / Racer ?

[RainDog]

The Harvest Moon Regatta this year was a bit of a blow. About 1/3 of the boats did not finish and the conditions damaged many boats. Granted this is nothing like crossing an ocean, but still thought it might be interesting to see how various boats did in a blow. This is only a 1 day race and there are two places along the route to "drop out" conveniently. This is of course far from proof of anything, but just for fun.....

On elapsed time:

Bene/Hunter/Catalina represented 60 of the 137 boats (non-Spinnaker fleet).

• 19 out of 41 boats did not finish.
• 15 finished in the top third.
• 14 finished in the second third.
• 12 finished in the bottom third.

Island Packets (the only all "full keel" grouping).

• 0 out of 7 boats did not finish.
• 2 finished in the top third.
• 3 in the second third.
• 2 in the bottom third.

The Classic Cutter Division. Mostly non-full keel boats, but still more conservative (Pacific Seacraft, Valiant, Cape Dory, Caliber, etc).

• 4 out of 12 boats did not finish.
• 1 finished in the top third.
• 3 in the second third.
• 4 in the bottom third.

On Corrected Time:

Bene/Hunter/Catalina:

• 9 finished in the top third.
• 16 finished in the second third.
• 16 finished in the bottom third.

Island Packets:

• 6 finished in the top third.
• 1 finished in the second third.
• 1 finished in the bottom third.

Classic Cutters:

• 3 finished in the top third.
• 2 finished in the second third.
• 3 finished in the bottom third.

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by RainDog

The Harvest Moon Regatta this year was a bit of a blow. About 1/3 of the boats did not finish and the conditions damaged many boats. Granted this is nothing like crossing an ocean, but still thought it might be interesting to see how various boats did in a blow. This is only a 1 day race and there are two places along the route to "drop out" conveniently. This is of course far from proof of anything, but just for fun.....

On elapsed time:




Bene/Hunter/Catalina represented 60 of the 137 boats (non-Spinnaker fleet).

• 19 out of 41 boats did not finish.
• 15 finished in the top third.
• 14 finished in the second third.
• 12 finished in the bottom third.

Island Packets (the only all "full keel" grouping).

• 0 out of 7 boats did not finish.
• 2 finished in the top third.
• 3 in the second third.
• 2 in the bottom third.

The Classic Cutter Division. Mostly non-full keel boats, but still more conservative (Pacific Seacraft, Valiant, Cape Dory, Caliber, etc).

• 4 out of 12 boats did not finish.
• 1 finished in the top third.
• 3 in the second third.
• 4 in the bottom third.

On Corrected Time:




Bene/Hunter/Catalina:

• 9 finished in the top third.
• 16 finished in the second third.
• 16 finished in the bottom third.

Island Packets:

• 6 finished in the top third.
• 1 finished in the second third.
• 1 finished in the bottom third.

Classic Cutters:

• 3 finished in the top third.
• 2 finished in the second third.
• 3 finished in the bottom third.

Similar observations looking at several Carib 1500s. In real world conditions, speed differences get somewhat lost in the shuffle.

My theory is that crews on fin keelers do precisely what others have mentioned here - they dial it back to get better motion, so their inherent speed advantage is reduced.

One other possibility is that (modified) full keelers tend to bear weight on the waterline better than lighter displacement racer/cruisers - so especially at the beginning of a long passage, the loss of performance on the latter evens the score a bit.

I have crossed oceans in (modified) full keel boats and protected waters in both full (again, modified) and fin. The motion in the former is definitely better, but since I am not particularly prone to seasickness, it really doesn't matter -- to me. My wife is a different story.

[Zednotzee]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Most sailers get into trouble near costs.

I'm sure that's a typo, but it's true anyway!!

[Mambo]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

>>snip<<
But in the long run, the choice between the "old" and the "new" designs of yachts is a matter of personal preferences. Asking for advice from others in these matters is, IMO, a waste of time. Ya gotta know what you like yourself, not what some unknown poster on the internet likes!

Cheers and good luck on your choice

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Towlers Bay, NSW, Oz

But what would CF be without constant old vs new design posts? Seriously, the boat you have, which is paid for and which you have confidence in -- that's the boat for the job. If you don't have a boat -- get one -- go to a boatyard and ask to go aboard different boats. Jim's right, you've gotta know what *you* like and want. You can't learn that on the internet.

[sww914]

Thanks for the great many useful replies. I bought a Vagabond 39 but I haven't sailed it yet and in fact I've only sailed on one full keeled boat, an OLD wooden Rhodes 33. That was a hell of a boat but it leaked like crazy if it blew more than 20. We took turns with the manual bilge pump the whole time. All the rest of my sailing in monohulls has been racer/ cruiser type boats or small boats. Upon reflection, I realize that better than 50% of my sailing has been on Nacra catamarans and usually in a lot of wind but not very deep water. Looking at that it seems that the boat that I just bought has almost nothing to do with a Nacra, in fact it's the opposite.
I hope to get my boat in the water soon so I know what I think of it myself.
Honestly, if it weren't for the exceptional interior and teak decks I wouldn't have bought it. We'll be living aboard so we need a boat that we will love living in and this is that.

[s/v Breakaway]

sww914, congratulations on getting your boat!

[JJB]

I gather you mean the difference between a serious IRC rated boat compared to the likes of a Beneteau, or something similar.

I've done quite a lot of miles in my own boat as well as racing, I haven't done any serious racing now in some years, however the last race boat I did an ocean crossing on was a 90ft R/P, from Sydney to Auckland.

I'm not really all that sure you can compare the difference all that well. Alfa was right on the edge all the time, it wasn't a forgiving boat to sail, if you made a large enough mistake, it could lead to loosing your rig, where as my own boat you could walk away from the helm for a couple of mins without engaging the auto pilot, simply all that would happen, is have the boat come off the wind and loose speed.

The maxi was much louder, not just as a result of more people but beating into the wind, the water smashing against the hull was quite a bit louder when trying to sleep, then you had the Canting Keel, every time that's adjusted it's quite loud, also total lack of privacy..

I have heard of people buying TP52's and converting them into cruising boat, while that would make one fast cruiser, even without running rigging, I feel it would still be a hard boat to handle running short handed.

[navigator54]

We've completed a circumnavigation as a family on a Catalina 42 and a trans-Pacific as a couple on a Catalina 470. Although we did encounter a bit of rough weather a few time no hesitation in saying they stood up well. Based on our limited exposured to the more cruiser-racer (with emphasis on racer) type of yacht I don't believe the trips would have been as comfortable in them.

[Livia]

Having only played in the swells on the West Coast of Vancouver Island, I have no good information to add but I'm following this thread with great interest because we chose to buy a relatively heavy displacement boat that people call a cruiser-racer (fin keel, skeg hung rudder that is wide) rather than a full-keel boat.

Originally Posted by RainDog

This is of course far from proof of anything, but just for fun.....

Very interesting data! Of course, the type of person who buys a full keel boat might sail differently than the type of person who buys a racer or a racer/cruiser. If someone is an extreme, go as fast as possible, push their boat to the max, kind of person...they might be less likely to buy a full keel. Of course, everyone in that fleet was racing so maybe not.

[RainDog]

It is a pretty casual race. I would guess over half the people are not really even trying to race. Mostly just going for the parties.

What I thought was interesting is we were near-reaching into 6-8 foot, 5 second period seas. I had often read that lighter boats could not stand up to these kind of conditions; the theory being that the waves would push their light bows off the wind. I do not see any evidence of that in this data. Of course this data does not indicate at all how comfortable people were. Most of the boats I talked to that dropped out did so because everyone on board was seasick.

[hummingway]

If you look at the transat's and such you do see that even with the sometimes considerable difference in speed between multis and monos the time differences are often not that great and sometimes monos will beat a multi, conditions in an ocean crossing often neutralize the things that make one boat faster then another. A case of slow and steady can sometimes get you there as fast.

Canadian legend the Bluenose came to prominance after the cancelling of the America's Cup in 1919 because of 25 knot winds. The grand banks fishermen thought a real test would be the racing of boats not so tender. Can you imagine what they would have thought of last years restrictions?

The Bluenose, a Canadian Champion

[RainDog]

It is funny how different people view good sailing. My neighbor day sails his hunter 2-3 days a week. He loves it, often single-hands, brings his family on weekends. If the wind is over 15 knots, he will come back in or not go out at all. To him, 15+ knot winds take all the fun out of sailing.

I also love sailing, but I usually will not leave the dock unless the wind is blowing > 15 knots. It is just not that fun to me. I like a rail down and a nice stiff breeze. If the wind is blowing 10, I would rather stay home unless I am entertaining guests.

We both love sailing, but just have opposite ideas of what makes a good sail. You can see that difference clearly reflected in our choice of boats.

Some people just like relaxing an lounging, others like the rail down and a good blow, others like the precision and skill of racing, others the beauty of a classic. Luckily there is a perfect boat for each and all.

[Paul L]

I cruise on a J/37. My previous boat was an Alberg 35. For my inner ear, the J is a much more comfortable boat in rough conditions than the Alberg ever was. As far as having to reduce sail on a performance boat to get comfortable going to weather, I see that as an advantage not an issue. It means that with considerably less sail area up, you can travel at the same speed as the full keeler. Less sail is just plan more easily managed by a Mom & Pop crew. Want to make it even more comfortable, crack off 10*. You are still sailing higher than the classic full/partial keel boat, but now able to very much out perform. The reduced sail needed to go downwind also makes sailing easier.

The biggest advantage of a performance boat is that they actually get sailed instead of motored. Light air is by far the most common conditions. The amount of motoring done on cruising boats is pretty darn high.


Paul L
svjeorgia.blogspot.com