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Old 20-01-2010, 04:38   #61
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As with most of the replys, but always....

1. Steel.
2. Long Keel.
3. Big Diesel swinging a big prop.
4. Structual integrity (see steel).
5. Watertight integrity.
6. Engineered to overkill.
I completely agree with the above. Our previous boat - which we still own for racing - was a light "modern design" racer/cruiser. We picked up few thunderstorms with her both on lakes and at sea. We also hit aground twice. We decided that we prefer a boat that will get us there no matter what the weather or what we hit afloat. Cutter rigged steel ketch with double strength everything does it for us even thought the keel is just semi-long and the diesel really isn't that big.

With limited leisure time for sailing, we cannot always choose the weather. That is why we choose the boat that allows as to sail on stormy days or weeks as well.
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Old 20-01-2010, 09:51   #62
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Jack- you state that lee helm is the cause. With the Bene, the problem was the wind would be so much stronger at the top of the swell than at the bottom. Do you have a solution for that?
There is no solution for the wind being stronger at the top of a wave.

If you are getting lee helm, there is a problem with the sail plan or the sail trim. As for the sail plan, you may not have enough rake in the mast or the mast be be stepped too far forward. As for trim, it is matter of finding the balance between the main and genoa. Too much genoa relative to the main may induce lee helm.

If weather helm is the issue, it is more likely a sail trim rather than sail plan issue. A reef in the main may help. In any event, broad reaching in big wind and seas is a totally different experience than broad reaching in flatter waters.
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Old 20-01-2010, 10:20   #63
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Hellosailor jan 14

The headfoil was a plastic headfoil only and not part of a roller furling system.

The wild ride on the bow? We have a special case. Our headstay is set back a foot and with the long overhang, I dodge the worst of the waves. We are just "hanks people."

My first ocean adventures were on a 70 foot schooner with a long bow sprite and a crazy skipper. Hanks, bob stays, whisker stays, heavy dacron, etc. make out little Averisera a walk in the park even at my age.

In other notes: The Lee Helm/Weather Helm discussio is straight out of the ASA exams. Nice!
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Old 20-01-2010, 10:32   #64
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In other notes: The Lee Helm/Weather Helm discussio is straight out of the ASA exams. Nice!
Just to deviate from the gospels according to ASA, CYA and ISPA, excessive heeling plays a huge role on weather helm and rounding up by making the waterline on the leeward side longer than the waterline on the windward side. This does depend of hull shape.
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Old 20-01-2010, 10:43   #65
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Helm and heeling. Your comments and more.

I am writing a paper on the subject. (I lead a boring life

It is always amusing, none the less, to see the answers to an exam question show up in a discussion.
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Old 20-01-2010, 11:03   #66
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Helm and heeling. Your comments and more.

I am writing a paper on the subject. (I lead a boring life

It is always amusing, none the less, to see the answers to an exam question show up in a discussion.
I would love to to see that paper.

I do not even teach ASA courses. But CYA and ISPA teach the same concepts.

Back to the topic at hand.

My thoughts on this come from a delivery back from Honolulu on an Elite 37 (similar to a Feeling 1070 / Kirie ). The auto helm had packed it in. I was particularly struck by the amount of concentration and physical work required when broad reaching in 25-30 knots with 12 - 15 foot seas. This was after we picked up the westerlies. We only had one slam, but I was below under an open cabin roof hatch under a dodger and got soaked. We were in these conditions for about 5 days.
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Old 20-01-2010, 11:51   #67
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"...the problem was the wind would be so much stronger at the top of the swell than at the bottom."

I've always felt that you have two options there. Ignoring a course change. You can either trim trim trim as you go up and down, and keep the crew very busy, or you can steer an "S" as you ride up and down the waves, in order to let the boat pivot under the sails as you keep them filled and pulling. (Which should matter more in lighter winds.)

I know, "S"ing the boat means rudder and the rudder is just a big speed brake, but until someone comes along with an insturmented boat and starts doing field experiments...I can't help thinking that letting the boat pivot a bit while keeping the sails drawing (not disrupting the laminar flow) makes for less work and wear, and possibly optimizing speed.
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Old 20-01-2010, 13:45   #68
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Some boats just require more input then others. We owned for a time a boat that would autotack upwind if you weren't quick enough trimming. We had a sailamker with us one time checking out a few things when we were hit with a puff that doubled the wind speed, 10 seconds later we were on the other board with a backed jib. Watching his expression was priceless. The boat was wicked quick when worked hard but it surely would not have made a good cruiser.

We've sailed some of the bigger Bene's and I really dislike how they load up the helm when the breeze comed on. It seems like it only takes a puff of a couple knots to give them big helm.

I love a boat that stays balanced as the wind moves up and down. Myabe they are not as quick as todays racing boats but for cruising they are much easier to handle and certainly easier on the auto pilot.
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Old 20-01-2010, 17:43   #69
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Lee helm / heel - very little on some double-enders (say things like the Frances), given the rig is balanced and the rudder designed properly.
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Old 20-01-2010, 19:28   #70
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Well, I didn't choose my boat based on a Heavy Weather event, I kept it because of that event. With a LOD of 35', LOA of 40' and a beam of 9'10", the cabin is just right for staying upright in the worst conditions. Plenty of handholds and rounded corners. Split galley (Port and Starboard) with lee boards on ALL bunks from the yard. 8"X12" heavy bronze ports and two 6" round bronze ports forward. Well sealed mahogany hatches (that will be one full inch thick when I redo them) and good solid companionway boards.

The cockpit drains are a bit small but I'm going to fix that. Full keel with a cutaway forefoot. Yawl rigged with bowsprit and staysail (detachable).

She currently has roller furling which I intend to do away with. The last thing I want is the 150 unrolling in a storm.

I have had her laid over with the sticks in the water and didn't get a drop in the cockpit or house (which was open) and suffered no damage with the exception of 6' of kelp hanging from the spreaders.

Getting caught in a Force 10 storm on the maiden delivery voyage with two newbie crew showed me she was well found and a good boat for heavy stuff. So when it came time to decide on a cruising boat, I stuck with this one. It doesn't hurt that she's paid for either...
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Old 28-01-2010, 12:00   #71
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I can tell you that a 311 ft DE is not a great sea boat in a north atlantic hurricane with 60 ft waves. While the 45 ft motor sailor we went out to resuce was still floating to a sea anchor the rudder was disabled and windows were broken. So I would say if you are foolish enough to go into harms way make sure you have good storm anchor -drogs and your rudder and windows and ports are storm proof. I have no interest in ever dealing with 60 ft waves again the power of the sea is awsome.
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Old 29-01-2010, 12:44   #72
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Been away (working on my Westerbeke) for a few days. The problem I was talking about was not sail trim or the weather helm that Bene's get due to their large transom...
When fighting to weather in larger swells- at the top of the swell the boat loses directional stability secondary to the keel becoming ineffective. The Bene was so light, and would float up so high on the wave, that the keel could not hold its course and immediately shifted leeward. I have only had that happen on a light short foot keel.
We had our sails trimmed and reefed correctly. Your right- basic boat stuff.
Any ideas? (besides different boat, and staying out of weather)
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Old 29-01-2010, 16:48   #73
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"The Bene was so light, and would float up so high on the wave, that the keel could not hold its course and immediately shifted leeward."
Dunno, Newt, but I suspect that's not what is happening. For the keel to shift leeward, that would mean the whole boat was being pushed sidways by the wind, the keel isn't going to "shift" except for heeling angel changing. If the boat moves downwind when the wind speed increases (as apparent wind will on the peaks) that might mean you are carrying too much canvas or the design has too much windage. Or maybe, is moving too slowly to maintain way.
Have you been able to get polars for the boat, to compare how much sail you are carrying in those conditions to what the polars show as optimum? (I ask because I've been surprised in the past, to see how much sooner a boat should be reefed than anyone aboard thought it should be, to maintain optimum boatspeed.)

Oh wait, a Beneteau! Of course it would have problems, you're supposed to sail them in Champagne, not sea water! <VBG>
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Old 30-01-2010, 08:41   #74
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Good day all:

If I am reading the query correctly... the event, blowing off to leeward, is a function of a sudden and simultaneous increase in windage and decrease in lateral resistance. This is common to light weight high freeboard designs.

As a high freeboard boat "pops up" out of a wave the windage on the hull increases dramatically. At the same time, the lateral resistance of the hull drops dramatically. The result is a marked sideslipping or blowing off to leeward. Strong winds with larger waves make the problem noticeable.

Racing a Beneteau Cyclades 44 in the BVI, we found that sailing to windward in swells we minimized the problem by moving crew weight forward. We centered their weight at the shrouds. In flatter seas and the same wind, the crew were more effective if centered aft of the shrouds across from the companionway.

Hardly a practical solution for the cruising couple!

Since the issue is a function of freeboard and draft, sail area changes have little influence in reducing the problem. High sided boats side slip more than low freeboard boats of the same draft and sail plan.

That's my general observation. Beam and dead rise angle come into play on the design side. Steering and sail trim can also be managed proactively to mitigate the problem (steer up the faces and down the backs, for example).

Isn't sailing an interesting sport, life style? So many variables.
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Old 30-01-2010, 09:35   #75
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The only two offshore yachts I have owned are a Westsail 32 and a Privilege 39 catamaran. I feel confident going through heavy weather in either of them. The Westsail was extremely strong, and as long as the mast is still pointing up in the sky, the boat can take a real beating. Once the mast is gone, the motion becomes a real challenge. The Westsail 32 has rounded bilges and rolls easily. The roll moment of inertia of the mast dampens the rolling in rough seas. A heavy mast did a great job of stabilizing and smoothing rolling motions on my Westsail 32.

My Privilege 39 has a great motion when sailing offshore, and in heavy weather we slow down for safety, crew comfort,and to avoid creating a demolition derby. If it gets bad, we deploy drogues or parachute sea anchor. Both drogues and parachute sea anchors work exeptionally well on our Privilege 39.

In extreme weather, I would prefer to be on board my Privilege 39 lying to a parachute sea anchor. The motion would be easier than on my Westsail 32, and that would make my first mate much happier. A happy first mate means the cruise will go well beyond the next port.
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