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Old 31-12-2009, 13:36   #16
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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"Lots of handholds"

And rounded corners! If you've ever been tossed a couple of feet into the corner of a table or counter...the makers who have rounded off all the pointy stuff, usually have been building a boat with more concern for sailing than selling. Little stuff (like up-rounded companionway steps on BendyToys, or the dust grate at the companionway base in Sabres) can often tip you off as to how much attention the builder has been paying to real time on the water.

Amen hellosailor!! On one atlantic trip in a 37 footer by the time we reached our destination I cursed the carpenter at least a thousand times ( one for every bruise on my poor body).

Sneuman, great thread and yes it has definitely influenced my choice. My first trip in the Atlantic I was hit by a bad storm (70-80knots). Good seamanship is not what saved us but pure brute strength of the vessel and the trusty engine. So when I boat shop I always have extreme weather in the back of my mind. A nice shallow fin keel is great for single handed docking, pointing and sailing abilities etc. but how will she like a breaking wave that hits her broadside? Or what about her keelbolts? will they shear due to extreme fatigue? I know a keel falling of is unlikely but in a bad storm you sit and think about all the weaknesses of your vessel, keel bolts would be a big worry. I love big ports but then I think of my knockdown (also in the Atlantic) and it loses its appeal. There was a particular boat that I was very interested in buying, it was going cheap due to a divorce. The sailboat would of made a great live aboard but in the end I decided against it because I knew I'd never really trust her offshore. So I bought a boat that can be a bit cramped down below but I have a future with this boat, she can take me anywhere. In other words - it is not about her threshold but mine.
Hope that made sense,
Erika
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Old 31-12-2009, 13:57   #17
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Well, at least one of those makers makes two "lines", one aimed at the charter trade and another aimed at racers. Glass dividers? Probably look pretty by candle light.
:-)
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Old 31-12-2009, 14:37   #18
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Originally Posted by Ocean Girl View Post
So I bought a boat that can be a bit cramped down below but I have a future with this boat, she can take me anywhere. In other words - it is not about her threshold but mine.
Hope that made sense,
Erika
Makes sense to me

Similar thought process here, save for no Mid Atlantic knockdown .

I also wanted a boat within my capabilities to maintain in a solid & seaworthy condition, both skills wise (it's hammer time! ) and financially (especially in the future, if ever actually out extended cruising). In practice my choices turned out as low frills and at 30 foot........I will find out Mid Atlantic how my choice(s) pan out
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Old 31-12-2009, 15:20   #19
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I was on an O'day crewing on a delivery, when the owner left Turtle Bay, Mexico with the barometer going in the tank and a dust storm approaching from the desert.

It was my first off-shore experience so the waves were monstrous and the winds gale force at least. But when the little boat would drop off of a swell with a mighty crash the sides would flex in like an oil can.

The owner had saved money by installing an inexpensive rollar furler system and when it became almost to late to shorten sail, he had to go forward to somehow get the failed rollar system to shorten sail. I didn't think I'd have been able to turn the boat around in the huge seas to retrieve him if he had fallen overboard. He became distressed when I told him this.

The second problem, was the full batten main with all lines leading aft to the cockpit.
With all the bouncing around the lines became one big pile, impossible to untangle.
Without proper slides and rails on the mast for the full battens, the boat had to be headed almost directly into the wind in order to reef the sail. A 32 foot boat going bow-on to 20+ foot waves is not nice. Nor is going to the mast to pull the sail down when all lines are in the cockpit.

Watches were down to one hour on and one hour off as we hung on for our lives for what must have been five plus hours.

Lessons learned:
1. Rig your sails and sail-handling for the worst possible conditions.
2. become very astute about weather conditions and there effect on you and your boat.
3. Never volunteer to do something when you don't have a clue!
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Old 31-12-2009, 16:10   #20
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When I look at the new boats at a show, I often wonder, where the sea berths are.

There are some gorgeous interiors out there. A walk around bed in the V..would be wonderful...nice curvy settees in the salon....etc...

I just wonder where people go to get rest and stay in their bunk, in a blow...on some of the new boats.

I remember once going below, just to plot a course..( pre-GPS) just as I heard the
....Hold on!!....warning...
I found myself on the other side of the cabin upside down with the chart still in my hand....luckily it was a soft landing..
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Old 31-12-2009, 16:44   #21
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Bunks you can sleep in underway.

I been on wonderful, huge, boat show boats, where the primary berths were only usable in harbor.

I love to get up early and head out without waking the family. If they roll out of bed and land on the floor, or get thrown into the air, I will hear about it.

V-berths are a challenge. Cute angled berths with walking access to both sides are comical.
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Old 31-12-2009, 19:02   #22
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Lee clothes
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Old 31-12-2009, 19:32   #23
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After chartering hunters for many years before sailing a full keeler I was sold on the full keel. Going lock to lock trying to hold a course through steep waves is no fun and way tiring.
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Old 31-12-2009, 20:09   #24
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Two words:

Lee clothes
I use boards now......cushions are off for the winter, but this forms a nice crib..with the cushions in place.....I used cloths once, didn't like them.
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Old 31-12-2009, 20:23   #25
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Of course... But why don't they come with the boats?

Quote:
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Two words:

Lee clothes
The fore-aft location is also important, and some designs ignore this.
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Old 01-01-2010, 23:23   #26
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Heavy Weather Experiences and Many Miles at Sea, DO Influence Choices!

sneuman,
No question about it, my heavy weather experiences (especially well offshore) have influenced my boat choices.....

And, I couldn't agree more with Pelagic......
He summed-up the basics very well!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Those of us who have experienced Storms at sea would focus more on the security of openings in the shell and cabin and integral strength rather than the actual designů. since the bottom line is to keep the water out when it is washing over you.


Of course, once you spend a few weeks, on a long passage, such as crossing an ocean......even if you're lucky enough to not encounter much heavy weather (although I've never been that lucky), you'll find yourself appreciating your vessel's design and quality of manufacture, including the hull, deck, grid, scantlings, etc....mast / rigging, hull/deck joint, keel, keel bolts, rudder, rudder post, steering system, etc. etc....as well as the aforementioned ability to keep the water out!!!!

And, once you've made the commitment to keep the water out....most of the remaining heavy weather influences, specifically regarding boat choices, are directed mostly at the vessel's design / construction.....
These are areas that are not usually owner modifiable, as opposed to those that you can add yourself to almost any boat....


{ Now, sneuman, you asked for some specifics......and I thoght in addition to my agreement with Pelagic, I'd add a few specific answers for you...and try to relate some of my personal experiences that drive my choices....
(And, while I agree completely that some boat designs do pound and are uncomfortable, while some just knuckle-down and ride smooth, when in heavy weather, MY EXPERIENCES show that does NOT correlate to "modern fin-keeled" vs. "traditional full-keeled", so let's not go there, please!!!
I'm also REAL glad this isn't a "what makes a good offshore boat" thread, since that's been done to death!!) }


1) The first rule of personal survivibilty is: "don't fall off the boat".....
And, the first two rules of boat survivibility are: "keep the water out".....and "keep it right side up"....

So, keeping the water out, by using good quality hatches and ports (properly installed), cannot be over-stated......
And, also making sure that your boat choice does NOT have large "windows" like a marina condo....

I've been offshore in many different boats, and had quite a bit of green (and blue) water rushing over the decks......including many full gales, some while crossing the Atlantic.....and even sailing thru a Tropical Storm for 3 days during another Atlantic crossing....
And I've found few boats are really built or equipped, to take this.......I've actually only sailed on 2 boats, that never leaked a drop (a 1970's Hinckley, and my current 1999 Catalina 470)....

Quite honestly, there are many discussions about what makes a good offshore boat, but high-quality hatches / ports (and their proper installation) are often overlooked.....
And, while doing a re-fit to install better hatches and ports is do-able, it is an expensive and time consuming process......
And, with my experiences in heavy weather offshore, I'd put having high-quality hatches / ports (properly installed) high on my list when choosing a boat.....

{In addition to heavy weather offshore, I've been on board during two direct hits of Cat 3 Hurricanes, just 2 miles up a river from the Atlantic....and found Lewmar Ocean hatches and Atlantic ports, properly installed to be wonderful....}


2) Although, the steering syetem could be listed with other "boat systems", my experiences have proved that it deserves a listing all to itself.....
It cannot be stressed enough that a well designed and stoutly built steering system is VERY important.....
While this includes an emergency tiller, if you choose wisely you'll never need it......

Although NOT a necessity, having redundant steering (two separate wheels, cables, etc.) is a BIG plus in my book......
But as it is not do-able on some boat designs, having a VERY stout autopilot system (including the pilot tiller arm) is an important feature influenced by my heavy weather experiences.....

And/or having windvane self-steering is also a big plus....

So, in choosing a boat, you need to consider what type of redundant steering she has now.....or what she is designed to carry......and/or what type can you add....
(whatever type of rudder she's got won't matter if you can't steer the rudder...)

{ I've had a hydraulic autopilot leak like a sive, during a Caribbean delivery of 42' sloop.......and I've had an autopilot bracket come loose during a full gale on an Atlantic crossing......and I've had a crappy center-cockpit steering system (on a high-priced 46' sloop) exhibit excess play and even dangerous steering action while sailing thru squals in the Caribbean....
And, on the good side, I've found my well designed steering sysrem to allow me to spend hours hand-steering in the middle of a Cat 3 Hurricane, with no worries....}


3) In the past 30 some years, sailing across the Atlantic a few times (as well on other long passages), I've found the galley design (and to a lesser extent, galley location) to VERY important!!!!

A U-shaped galley is my favorite.....but a small L-shaped galley is also usable.....

Being able to eat / cook well, when on longer passages, and especially in heavy weather, is VERY important.....
I've found not just for safety and physical strength reasons, but also for morale reasons.....

{ I've done a LOT of cooking on long passages and sailing across the Atlantic a few times.....and during some heavy weather, it's easier to do a "one-pot" meal, but you still need to be able to safely cook and eat it!!!Having excellent handholds / grabrail in my galley is a must....}


4) Back in the 1970's, in a truly rough night crossing of the Mona Passage, we lost one of our anchors overboard.....and towed it along on its chain/rope rode for many hours, before noticing it......

So, having secure anchor brackets / tie-downs, has become something that I'm always aware of!!!!


5) A "dry" sailing boat for normal conditions and a fast draining / self draining cockpit, for heavy weather conditions.....
You don't want a lot of water in the cockpit, and if you do take a breaking wave into the cockpit, you want it to drain instantly.....

I personally like aft cockpits with open aft ends that self-drain instantly....

6) Sizable bridgedeck in cockpit, to keep water from getting thru the companionway......

Also, well designed deck lockers, cockpit lockers, and lazarettes.....
While, you can add storm boards (aka down-flooding boards), if the boat's design / layout is done right, and the locker doors/hatches are designed right, you're way ahead of the game....

{ In all my 10,000's miles offshore, and crossing the Atlantic a few times I've never found any water pooling in my open, self-draining cockpit, (with 2 scupper drains for the helm foot wells).....and druing my 2 on-board experiences in Cat 3 Hurricanes, with 120 - 125 mph wind driven rain, and short, steep waves, I've not found any water pooling and found the cockpit to drain easily....Also never had water boarding thru the companionway, nor had any in cockpit lockers, nor lazarette...}


7) Layout of "boat systems" is my next area, where I've found my heavy weather experiences have influenced my boat choices......
While this can include just about everything on board, if you narrow it down to just the "mission critical" systems, you'll see that it is "do-able"....

Since I listed the steering system already, I'll just list a few more of the main areas here:
a) Rigging layout and design....
b) Winch placement and size....
c) Adequate deck strength and backing plates for cleats, pad eyes, rope clutches, blocks, etc.....(which allows for easy owner-modifications)
d) Deck layout / Side-deck layout....(allows you to move around on deck when in heavy weather......"crawl forward" while clipped-in to adequate jacklines, when needed.....)
e) Location and layout of the Nav Station and electrical systems....
f) Engine access, and at-sea repairability......
g) Multiple fuel and water tanks, allowing fuel and water to be used even if one tank is compromised...
h) Location and layout of berths......good sea berths are a necessity in heavy wether....
i) Cabin layout allowing ease of movement, without too much wide open space.....and as mentioned by others, rounded corners and strong joinery work.....NO sharp corners, and NO glass!!!


The list can go on and on.....it just depends on how specific you want to be.....



8) There are also many, many choices on board that are influenced by heavy weather experiences.....but most of them can be owned-installed, and/or be easy owner modifications....
So, in my opinion, they do NOT really influence boat choices, except in the way the boat's design allows for the ease of these additions / modifications....

These include (but are not limited to):

a) Handholds, both below and on deck.....(my current boat came from the factory well equipped with handrails on deck, and with a good deal of stout handholds below, along the cabin trunk and bulkheads, but I added more....)
Handrails

b) Padeyes for harnesses....
Cockpit Padeye

c) Lee Boards / Lee Cloths....
Lee Boards/Cloths
Starboard Lee Cloth

d) Adequate ventilation below (fans, etc.), since in heavy weather, you'll not have hatches open, and it'll be wet on deck, so you'll need good air circulation below!!!
I've actually got twelve (12) fans below, on my 47' sloop....
12 Volt Fans

e) Ease of use of heads, while in heavy weather and/or heeled over beating into high winds.....

f) Adequate secured storage.....strong locker latches/hinges....

g) Ease of access to food, clothes, personal care items, when in heavy weather....

h) Racor filters, etc....

i) High-Quality and well maintained genoa furler......although some purists will want hanked-on sails.....the FACT is that most cruising boats have roller furler genoas, so make sure it is a high-quality and well-maintaned one!!

j) Full-battened mainsails with deep reef points.....and easy to use reefing system....
Personal preferences will dictate what type of reefing system you'll equip your boat with....but make ABSOLUTELY SURE you can easily use if you get caught off-guard by some heavy weather....(having to turn directly into the wind, with steep seas, etc.... just to put in a reef, is no fun!!!)


Okay, here again the list could go on and on......but I think I hit the main points....


Fair winds.

John
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Old 01-01-2010, 23:48   #27
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Galley layout

Pictures are supposed to be worth 1000 words.....so, in adition to my post above, here are a few photos....
Since I do not have a photo of my galley posted on-line, I'm going to try to attach a photo here of my galley layout.....hopefully it will work....




And here's a sistership's galley/stove:
4712301

And, don't forget the photos of the handholds, padeyes, lee boards, lee cloths, fans, etc....
Handrails
Cockpit Padeye
Lee Boards/Cloths
Starboard Lee Cloth
12 Volt Fans
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Old 02-01-2010, 06:33   #28
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Wow john, great boat and great posts.
Cheers,
Erika
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Old 02-01-2010, 07:29   #29
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Well done John in explaining the many details I was too lazy to get into.

Your solutions are both simple and effective
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Old 02-01-2010, 09:39   #30
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Excellent points made by ka4wja.Some things I would like to share also.Steel would be my hull of choice,due to sheer strength,and all fixtures being welded on(not through).No keel bolts to worry about,as far as corrosion goes,zincs take care of that,rust streaks,who cares. Self steering is a must,which alse can be used as emergency rudder.Inside steering would also be a big plus.As far as reefing goes,after sailing conventional and junk rigs,for heavy weather I would choose the junk rig for ease of handling shorthanded,no need to turn upwind to reef,sail furls itself,rig is shorter,strain is spread out.The cockpit footwell can be eliminated altogether,raise the lifelines higher in this area.A hardtop is also a must.Centre cockdeck is nice for ease of movement,and aft cabin layout as this is a quiet place for sleeping.40 to 45 ft. around 30,000lbs.,with a powerful engine.Roberts or Colvin comes to mind.(or similar)When it comes to heavy weather sailing, strength and safety are number 1 priority.
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