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Old 21-05-2011, 01:48   #46
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

Hello again,
Thanks for the input, guess I will keep the furler and go with the genny and removable forestay as suggested by the naval architect .
Hanna, I wanted more performance my boat has a low bruce number even for a cruising boat. The mizzen was constantly in the way and the boom was too low, to get under, when moving around the stern. Finally I needed the room to mount an arch for the solar panels.
Thanks
Rich
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Old 22-05-2011, 22:24   #47
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Re: hank on or furling head sails

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
Immensely? I disagree. Sails with the luff in foils generally outperform sails on hanks when hard on the wind. And an RF system provides a foil.

You'll never see a high-end racer using hanks. Never. It's always a foil system, whether it's a standard foil or a furling foil.
Furling systems differ substantially from a foil on a racer. Not the same beast.
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Old 22-05-2011, 23:34   #48
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

Why not differ from the herd and go traditional/hank up? Hank sails won't let you down (fail to furl/unfurl), give better sail shape, and cost less. Not to mention you eliminate an entire (costly) system - the furling system. A little cardio isn't necessarily a bad thing either, nor is the satisfaction of hanking up a proper sail for the conditions of the moment (sailing is fun)...

I realize the heresy of going against mainstream sailing doctrine, but I feel compelled when I read "Thanks for the input, guess I will keep the furler"... doesn't read like you are convinced at all.

Furlers are often (not always of course) for the motorsailor who finds many of the more traditional aspects of sailing bothersome and inconvenient.
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Old 23-05-2011, 01:55   #49
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
Errr, why? Seems completely the wrong way round?
Makes a lot of sense to me. For day sailing, you only need to sail in 10-20 knots of wind. You can put a sail on a roller fuller and always have the right sail. If you have a problem, call for a tow or motor in.

When cruising, you need to sail in all kinds of conditions. With hank-on sails you can always have the correct sail up. Also you are probably sooner or later going to get caught out in high winds. In those conditions many people rightfully do not trust roller fullers. I routinely watch people limp back to port with broken furlers and shredded sails. Then it takes them half a day to figure out how to get the remains of their sail off the boat.

My last boat had roller furling. Never really cared for it when the wind was <8 or >20 knots. My new boat has hank-on sails, and I would not want to switch.

That being said, my love story does not care to see me on the foredeck in rough conditions, so she may overrule me and a roller furler may be in my future yet.
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Old 23-05-2011, 02:00   #50
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Re: hank on or furling head sails

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Furling systems differ substantially from a foil on a racer. Not the same beast.
The only significant difference is that the furling drum forces the foot of the headsail to be a bit more off the deck (although a very few boats put the furling drum in a well, allowing you to fly a deck-sweeper). And, I suppose the head of the sail might be a bit lower due to the swivel.

I suggest that in any case a cruiser isn't going to want a true deck-sweeper genoa for several very good reasons.
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Old 23-05-2011, 02:06   #51
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
With hank-on sails you can always have the correct sail up.
Technically true, but in practice you generally have the incorrect sail hanked on. If you're racing you spend the effort to change sails and optimize your speed. This can get tiring if you are on a long cruise.

I will agree that hank-on sails are generally more bulletproof. I see nothing wrong with rigging the system you prefer.
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Old 23-05-2011, 03:32   #52
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Originally Posted by RainDog View Post
Makes a lot of sense to me. For day sailing, you only need to sail in 10-20 knots of wind. You can put a sail on a roller fuller and always have the right sail. If you have a problem, call for a tow or motor in.

When cruising, you need to sail in all kinds of conditions. With hank-on sails you can always have the correct sail up. Also you are probably sooner or later going to get caught out in high winds. In those conditions many people rightfully do not trust roller fullers. I routinely watch people limp back to port with broken furlers and shredded sails. Then it takes them half a day to figure out how to get the remains of their sail off the boat.
Well, maybe with a single headsail, but I've got a cutter Best of both worlds, roller reefing for ease of use and a tough as old boots staysail when the beeze gets up.

I can't remember seeing a broken furler cruising, maybe cruisers are more defensive sailors and spend more time on maintenance or just have better kit but doesn't seem to be a common occurance. Last time I ripped a sail was not rolling quick enough getting blasted coming out of the lee of an island. Hank on would have been worse.

But it's one of those topics where there is no answer, each to their own. I certainly wouldn't want to cruise with hank on sails.
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Old 23-05-2011, 03:49   #53
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

How about the best of both worlds? I have a system on my boat where the sails go up/down easier than hanked sails. It furls if I want. I can easily set any sail I want. plus when I drop the sail it is already flaked and ready to go in a sail bag (if i don't leave it up in the furled position). My system is set up for a cutter with a long bowsprit, but the same system can easily be used on any other boat. To long to describe in detail so go to Re-Rigging Shanti | Shanti&#039;s projects and adventures - Part 2 and have a look.
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Old 23-05-2011, 07:39   #54
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

Hang on a sec. I know its wonderful for folks to shoot the breeze and say how nice the old days were, but really, hank on sails are totally devoid in the usability and safety for long range cruising.

I can remember my first off shore sailing races when I was about 17 and the hanks on all the genoas were damn hard to pop with a cold or even cool hand. Water made them worse. Corrosion made it almost imposable.

Reefing in a hig wind means you need to change down sails. So in 40 knots you are going to be on deck by yourself holding an dropped No 3 and a dropped Storm Jib while you are hanking and unhanking? MADNESS! Especially when the same can be done in the safety of your cockpit with the pull of a string while the other watch remains asleep.

Really anyone these days who has the option should chuck all thoughts of hank on sails. Especially if you want to go to sea or go cruising.

For some folks who have classic boats where form is more important than other considerations then go for it.





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Old 23-05-2011, 10:40   #55
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

I've seen alot of broken or problematic furlers while cruising. Quite often the beaaring go bad, or the joints work loose and damage the extrusion etc. Then there is the problem with twist and chafe at the top. Furlers are surprisingly heavy. If the CG of the extrusion is 50 lbs at 20 ft up...that's a 1000 lb moment negating a 1000 lb's of your ballast. However...having said that, I think furlers are great for cruising, but they are a definite detriment to sail shape unless fully unfurled. Furlers on a flat out racing boat...you've got to be kidding..
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Old 23-05-2011, 10:48   #56
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

This is yet another area where "Multiple Redundancy" is the word of the day for me.

Its seems that so many issues about the *Right* or *best* way to do something boil down to being able to do it in multiple ways... maybe more than two in some cases...

I want a furler, and I want luft tape or hank on options as well on ANOTHER halyard line.
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Old 23-05-2011, 10:54   #57
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Originally Posted by redcobra View Post

It's not as easy to change sails as with the hanks, but if you plan ahead it's no big deal. Make sure the luff groove is smooth and polished and the sail slides right out and down the forehatch. You do need two people to hoist a new sail as one makes sure the luff tape feeds into the groove properly as the other cranks the winch (all halyards run to the cockpit).
It is tricky but have found that I can get the luff tape into the foil singlehanded by cleating the halyard at just the right length and then sort of springing it into the slot. No pre-feeder needed. Have had a few problems with the roller not wanting to roll but those were adjustment issues.
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Old 23-05-2011, 11:07   #58
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
Reefing in a hig wind means you need to change down sails. So in 40 knots you are going to be on deck by yourself holding an dropped No 3 and a dropped Storm Jib while you are hanking and unhanking? MADNESS!...

Mark
Why would you be changing sails at that point anyway? Reef and change early - the rule of the game.

I've had both. Here's m opinion...being from the old school

Hank on Sails
my jib had reefing points

Advantages
- ease of maintenance
- simplicity in systems
- cheap
- easier to balance rig
- closer pointing

Disadvantages
- storage
- will drive you crazy having to raise and lower sails in LIGHT and VARIABLE winds to find the perfect match.
- energy wasting
- possible safety issues having to go forward and also loose your halyard in a slip which bangs you head as you try and grab it holding sails and lines.

Roller Furlers
I avoided in the past because they were unreliable. Systems these days are much more stable and proven.

Advantages
- save time and energy
- safer
- somewhat reefable for light conditions w/o loosing shape.

Disadvantages
- complex systems need maintenance and can fail
- costly
- changing sails is a PITA
- high weight aloft in windy conditions.

what would I use today?

Furlers on stay and fore with spectra-roller like storm. Slip over storm sails dont work and dont balance well.
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Old 23-05-2011, 11:38   #59
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Furlers on a flat out racing boat...you've got to be kidding..
Most of the Open 60's I've ever seen have roller headsail furling.

Bluegreen Pictures


"
Furling Systems for Headsails and Mainsails

by Simon Boyde, Technical Director, Storm Force Marine

"We all know about roller furling genoas: that they are cruising items, and that they are not used for racing, and in the end you end up with a compromise sail. Well this is simply not the case anymore.

"IRC gives you about a 1% difference in your rating between using a roller furling genoa and having three separate gennies for use in different wind conditions. This is not a lot and, of course, if you are racing IRC, the difference is taken care of while racing by the handicap. I mean, if its good enough for Ellen MacArthur on B&Q – as well as a whole host of the Open 60 racers, it should be good enough for me!
Additionally, it is obvious that for going from A to B, unless you have a crew which is well trained for quickly changing headsails, you go faster on a boat with a furling genoa.

. . . ."

http://www.stormforcemarine.com/furling-systems.html
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Old 23-05-2011, 11:41   #60
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
I've seen alot of broken or problematic furlers while cruising. Quite often the beaaring go bad, or the joints work loose and damage the extrusion etc. Then there is the problem with twist and chafe at the top. Furlers are surprisingly heavy. If the CG of the extrusion is 50 lbs at 20 ft up...that's a 1000 lb moment negating a 1000 lb's of your ballast. However...having said that, I think furlers are great for cruising, but they are a definite detriment to sail shape unless fully unfurled. Furlers on a flat out racing boat...you've got to be kidding..
G'Day Cheech,

Well, yes, I too have seen the occasional buggered furler out cruising. They are often on boats with other deferred maintenance issues. I've seen ( and to my embarrassment experienced) frozen hanks that just wouldn't come open too, and had them pull out of their grommets under duress. Draw your own conclusions.

There may be 50 lb foils on really big boats, but on my 46 footer the foil weighs less than half of that. You might also want to review the maths on your comparison of righting moments (remember that the COG of the ballast is also some distance from the roll center, so that in your example the foil (even if it weighed as much as your suggest) would "negate" far less than 1000 lbs of ballast. I do agree that the furler is heavier than hanks, and that this is a negative aspect. I just think that it is not a very significant part of the decision for most cruisers.

To me, one real drawback of furlers (especially two furlers such as in my Solent rig setup) is the significant windage of the furled sails. Makes the boat sail around the anchor more, adds heeling forces in high winds at anchor, makes the boat harder to heave to successfully and of course slows her down going to windward (one or the other sail rolled up).

And finally yes, there are serious race boats that use furlers: consider each and every Around Alone (ex-BOC) entrant, some with as many as three furlers permanently rigged. And Code Zero's or screechers on many modern race boats, all mounted on luff-furlers.

My personal history was thus: started cruising with hanks, went to a "K-Z" foil magazine loading (non-furling) foil system, enjoyed the improvement, went to a furler, enjoyed the improvement there too. Haven't noticed any significant decrement in sailing performance overall, and have definitely appreciated the fewer trips to the foredeck in inclement weather.

For those considering this decision without personal experience, I suggest reading Chichester's book about circumnavigating in Gypsy Moth. His tale abounds with examples of fatigue resulting from frequent sail changes in challenging conditions. I seriously doubt that, were he to set out again today he'd use hank on sails.

But, in the long run each cruiser must decide for himself, and all of our pontificating means little to him!

Cheers,
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