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Old 19-05-2011, 17:59   #31
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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It should be pointed out that the performance penalty on a roller furler is not an absolute. If you're going to ask a #1 genoa to do the work of a #3 by furling it partially, then it will indeed perform poorly. But if you swap the sails as needed, there is virtually no performance penalty other than for a bit of added windage aloft for the swivel. Using a two-track foil on my current roller furler, I am able to change sails just as quickly with that system as I was with former race boats that had conventional two-track foils.

The problem with roller furlers is that people have bought into the misconception that a genoa can be made to perform well in all conditions.
Not to hijack this thread, but I have a furler with two grooves. How do you use the second groove when you change sails? If you run the smaller sail up on the inside of the larger one, then how do you drop the larger one. I have never figured out the two groove technique.
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Old 19-05-2011, 18:05   #32
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

we've gone hanks, the furler is in the garage. When we're done with our 2-3 year cruise, the furler will go back on.
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Old 19-05-2011, 18:17   #33
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pirate Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Originally Posted by redcobra View Post
Not to hijack this thread, but I have a furler with two grooves. How do you use the second groove when you change sails? If you run the smaller sail up on the inside of the larger one, then how do you drop the larger one. I have never figured out the two groove technique.
Release the halyard... grab a handfull of sail and pull.... then either bundle it into a bag or bungee it to the guardrails trad style...
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Old 19-05-2011, 18:21   #34
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Not to hijack this thread, but I have a furler with two grooves. How do you use the second groove when you change sails? If you run the smaller sail up on the inside of the larger one, then how do you drop the larger one. I have never figured out the two groove technique.
It works best when the new sail is hoisted on the inside groove. Let's assume that sail #1 is on the starboard groove, and that the boat is on port tack. First, untie the lazy sheet, and affix it sail #2. Now hoist sail #2 in the port groove. Now tack over to starboard. Now lower sail #1, hopefully flaking it while it comes down. Now remove the new lazy sheet from sail #1, and tie it to sail #2. Finally, tack back to original course.

You need two jib halyards, of course, to do this optimally.
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Old 19-05-2011, 18:29   #35
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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It works best when the new sail is hoisted on the inside groove. Let's assume that sail #1 is on the starboard groove, and that the boat is on port tack. First, untie the lazy sheet, and affix it sail #2. Now hoist sail #2 in the port groove. Now tack over to starboard. Now lower sail #1, hopefully flaking it while it comes down. Now remove the new lazy sheet from sail #1, and tie it to sail #2. Finally, tack back to original course.

You need two jib halyards, of course, to do this optimally.
Yes, done that, but for me it was easier and safer just to pull the first one down and stow it then raise the second. We are talking large stiff sails here and only one person on the foredeck. And, after tacking, the original sail tends to plaster itself against the inner side of the new one one and very difficult to get down.
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Old 19-05-2011, 19:06   #36
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Yes, done that, but for me it was easier and safer just to pull the first one down and stow it then raise the second. We are talking large stiff sails here and only one person on the foredeck. And, after tacking, the original sail tends to plaster itself against the inner side of the new one one and very difficult to get down.
I understand. The advantage here is not for you, but for your sails. Even in a stiff breeze, this method leads to a sail change with absolutely zero flogging.

The lazy sail won't plaster itself against the working sail unless you're footing off. Pinch up a bit.
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Old 19-05-2011, 19:25   #37
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Re: hank on or furling head sails

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But this is because the sail you have on the furler is generally not the sail you would have chosen if you had a several hanked-on sails in your inventory.

Racing boats often have their headsails with lufftapes, in foils on the headstay. This is essentially the same arrangement as the furler. A properly-sized sail on a furler is as good or better at pointing than a hanked sail.

It's when you use the furler to reef down a large headsail that the pointing ability is degraded. And generally, that's what those of us with furlers do.

Now that I'm done being pedantic, I have roller-furling genoa and staysail, and the convenience is great. I carry one of those ATN "wrap-around" storm jibs, sized for the staysail, but I've never used it in anger. My staysail, partially furled if necessary, has served me well in full-gale conditions, and I've never been in a real storm.

You forgot Forestay sag. Which is really the sag of the alloy extrusion itself not the forestay. But it allows the luff to fall to leeward sufficiently enough to have a substancial affect on pointing ability.
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Old 20-05-2011, 02:19   #38
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Originally Posted by redcobra View Post
Not to hijack this thread, but I have a furler with two grooves. How do you use the second groove when you change sails? If you run the smaller sail up on the inside of the larger one, then how do you drop the larger one. I have never figured out the two groove technique.
No idea

But for an atlantic downwind crossing people use 2 headsails, one in each groove. One poled out with the pole and the other out on a block at the end of the boom (boom out the side with a preventer). Never tried it but by all accounts works well, very easy to reef both sails at once if the wind pipes up a bit.
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Old 20-05-2011, 02:28   #39
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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we've gone hanks, the furler is in the garage. When we're done with our 2-3 year cruise, the furler will go back on.

Errr, why? Seems completely the wrong way round?
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Old 20-05-2011, 08:29   #40
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
It works best when the new sail is hoisted on the inside groove. Let's assume that sail #1 is on the starboard groove, and that the boat is on port tack. First, untie the lazy sheet, and affix it sail #2. Now hoist sail #2 in the port groove. Now tack over to starboard. Now lower sail #1, hopefully flaking it while it comes down. Now remove the new lazy sheet from sail #1, and tie it to sail #2. Finally, tack back to original course.

You need two jib halyards, of course, to do this optimally.
Bash, something that I don't understand here: The technique that you describe here is what all racers use while doing headsail changes. But, with all the furlers I've owned, there is this difference -- the upper swivel that is an essential part of the furling system. The "first" sail is attached to the swivel, not just a halyard. So, were you to somehow hoist a second jib inside the first using a second halyard, you would be unable to lower the first jib because the swivel can't come down past the second jib. I can't see how you have managed to do this, so please explain.

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Old 20-05-2011, 09:27   #41
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Bash, something that I don't understand here: The technique that you describe here is what all racers use while doing headsail changes. But, with all the furlers I've owned, there is this difference -- the upper swivel that is an essential part of the furling system. The "first" sail is attached to the swivel, not just a halyard. So, were you to somehow hoist a second jib inside the first using a second halyard, you would be unable to lower the first jib because the swivel can't come down past the second jib. I can't see how you have managed to do this, so please explain.

Cheers,
was wondering myself ! Have made many racing headsail changes on a 2 groove foil-but none wer furling type.

By the way-if using the twin groove racing foil-make sure the foredeck guy puts the sail tack eye on the same side tack hook when rigging for the start.-think about it.

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Old 20-05-2011, 09:49   #42
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Bash, something that I don't understand here: The technique that you describe here is what all racers use while doing headsail changes. But, with all the furlers I've owned, there is this difference -- the upper swivel that is an essential part of the furling system. The "first" sail is attached to the swivel, not just a halyard. So, were you to somehow hoist a second jib inside the first using a second halyard, you would be unable to lower the first jib because the swivel can't come down past the second jib. I can't see how you have managed to do this, so please explain.

Cheers,
Yes, in that situation, where you've started out furled, you are committed to a bald-headed change, dropping sail number one before hoisting sail number two. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 20-05-2011, 10:57   #43
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

Red Horse, why are you giving up the versatility of a ketch rig for the cutter?
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Old 20-05-2011, 11:19   #44
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Re: Hank On or Furling Head Sails

I like the furler on the jib with a slightly high cut 115-120%. The staysail hanks on and sits ready to use hanked on the staysail stay in a special bag. Neat , tidy and ready to go. Never comes out until about 30 knots of wind anyway. If you insist in sailing in light air, the 115% may not be enough for you. If I'm not making almost 4 knots I'm motorsailing!
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Old 20-05-2011, 15:33   #45
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My ideal combination would be a Yankee on a furler and also a heavier duty staysail also on a furler. This gives lots of combinations upto 50 knots.

Dave
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