Guns on boats equals 5 years jail time

[Idylles15.5]

Originally Posted by Vipe6

They didn't come voluntarily, they only came after being provoked and only fought when the soviets already had the nazis on their knees. Allthough I loathe stalin and what he stood for (socialism in one country) I must admit he was brilliant at fighting the nazis.
Btw, I do not believe there are many americans left who fought in WW2 and why should I be grateful to someone who happens to be born in the same country as someone who fought in a war 20 years before I was born?
I don't understand why it's so difficult for some americans to abide by the laws of other countries. If a country's population does not wish people to carry guns then why is it so difficult not to carry a gun into that country? If it were mandatory to carry a gun when going to a country, I would avoid that country.

Man your a piece of work. My fathers flag is on my boat and I fly it every Memorial day off my transom. He fought in the Japanese / Pacific theater and later stayed for the occupation in Japan ans was personally inspected by General MacArthur. My Uncle who just passed fought in the Bulge and was shot three times taking out a German machine gun nest and was a war hero. As far as some of your threads about us Americans being unwilling, thousands like my father lied about his age to enter the war and fight the good fight. As far as why should you care about men who left their families and risked their lives to possible save your families. You should be ashamed of yourself and believe me your no historian. It's amazing to me how you say we want to impose our way of life on everyone. I seem to recall we could of taken Japan and all of the Pacific Islands and most of Europe as the victors of war, but all we imposed on you was enough land for a Memorial Cemetery in Normandy. Maybe you should take a trip down their with your family and spit on them in person. I can't call you what you are because they will take down my post for the being nice rule, but there is nothing remotely decent or nice about you. There is a very good possibility if not for the American Hero's like my Father and my Uncle you may very well not exist or at least be living under the sole of a Russian boot. So what should you be grateful for for those old americans you didn't even know? Probably your life.

[Ala Moana]

Our European arrogance
In alphabetical order

1. The American Cemetery at Aisne-Marne, France... A total of 2289

2. The American Cemetery at Ardennes, Belgium... A total of 5329

3. The American Cemetery at Brittany, France... A total of 4410

4. Brookwood, England - American Cemetery... A total of 468

5. Cambridge, England... A total of 3812

6. Epinal, France - American Cemetery... A total of 5525

7. Flanders Field, Belgium... A total of 368

8. Florence, Italy... A total of 4402

9. Henri-Chapelle, Belgium... A total of 7992

10. Lorraine , France... A total of 10,489

11. Luxembourg, Luxembourg... A total of 5076

12. Meuse-Argonne... A total of 14246

13. Netherlands, Netherlands... A total of 8301

14. Normandy, France... A total of 9387

15. Oise-Aisne, France... A total of 6012

16. Rhone, France... A total of 861

17. Sicily, Italy... A total of 7861

18. Somme, France... A total of 1844

19. St. Mihiel, France... A total of 4153

20. Suresnes, France... A total of 1541

Apologize to no one.
Remind those of our sacrifice and don't
Confuse arrogance with leadership.
The count is 104,366
Dead, brave Americans.

And we have to watch an
American elected leader who
Apologizes to Europe and the
Middle East that our country is "arrogant"!
HOW MANY FRENCH, DUTCH, ITALIANS,
BELGIANS AND BRITS ARE BURIED ON
OUR SOIL... AFTER DEFENDING US
AGAINST OUR ENEMIES?

WE DON'T ASK FOR PRAISE...
BUT WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE!

[Idylles15.5]

Originally Posted by Ala Moana

Our European arrogance
In alphabetical order

1. The American Cemetery at Aisne-Marne, France... A total of 2289

2. The American Cemetery at Ardennes, Belgium... A total of 5329

3. The American Cemetery at Brittany, France... A total of 4410

4. Brookwood, England - American Cemetery... A total of 468

5. Cambridge, England... A total of 3812

6. Epinal, France - American Cemetery... A total of 5525

7. Flanders Field, Belgium... A total of 368

8. Florence, Italy... A total of 4402

9. Henri-Chapelle, Belgium... A total of 7992

10. Lorraine , France... A total of 10,489

11. Luxembourg, Luxembourg... A total of 5076

12. Meuse-Argonne... A total of 14246

13. Netherlands, Netherlands... A total of 8301

14. Normandy, France... A total of 9387

15. Oise-Aisne, France... A total of 6012

16. Rhone, France... A total of 861

17. Sicily, Italy... A total of 7861

18. Somme, France... A total of 1844

19. St. Mihiel, France... A total of 4153

20. Suresnes, France... A total of 1541

Apologize to no one.
Remind those of our sacrifice and don't
Confuse arrogance with leadership.
The count is 104,366
Dead, brave Americans.

And we have to watch an
American elected leader who
Apologizes to Europe and the
Middle East that our country is "arrogant"!
HOW MANY FRENCH, DUTCH, ITALIANS,
BELGIANS AND BRITS ARE BURIED ON
OUR SOIL... AFTER DEFENDING US
AGAINST OUR ENEMIES?

WE DON'T ASK FOR PRAISE...
BUT WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE!

I was just thinking the exact same thing before you wrote it, and oh yeah the answer would be NONE. How soon they forget, and I don't ever hear any Americans asking for praise from 70 years ago. It only seems to come up when someone craps on us as usual. Disgrace

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Idylles15.5

I was just thinking the exact same thing before you wrote it, and oh yeah the answer would be NONE. How soon they forget, and I don't ever hear any Americans asking for praise from 70 years ago. It only seems to come up when someone craps on us as usual. Disgrace

Ummm-I was really trying to stay out of this one, but the American War of Independence would never have been won without support from the French. Not many French casualties on American soil, but certainly some. And a whole lot more at sea.


"French participation in North America was initially maritime in nature and marked by some indecision on the part of its military leaders. In 1778, American and French planners organized an attempt to capture Newport, Rhode Island, then under British occupation. The attempt failed, in part because Admiral d'Estaing did not land French troops prior to sailing out of Narragansett Bay to meet the British fleet. He then sailed for Boston after his fleet was damaged in a storm. In 1779, d'Estaing again led his fleet to North America for joint operations, this time against British-held Savannah, Georgia. About 3,000 French joined with 2,000 Americans in the Siege of Savannah, in which a naval bombardment was unsuccessful. An attempted assault of the entrenched British position was repulsed with heavy losses.

Support became more notable when, in 1780, 6,000 soldiers led by Rochambeau landed at Newport, itself abandoned in 1779 by the British, where the French established a naval base. These forces were largely inactive since the fleet was closely watched by the British fleet from its bases in New York and eastern Long Island. By early 1781, with the war dragging on, French military planners were finally convinced that more significant operations would be required in North America to bring a decisive end to the war. That year's West Indies fleet was commanded by the comte de Grasse, and specific arrangements were made to coordinate operations with him. De Grasse asked to be supplied with North American pilots and to be informed of possible operations in North America to which he might contribute. Rochambeau and Washington met at Wethersfield, Connecticut in May 1781 to discuss their options. Washington wanted to drive the British from both New York City and Virginia (the latter led first by turncoat Benedict Arnold, then by Brigadier William Phillips and eventually by Charles Cornwallis). Virginia was also seen as a potent threat that could be fought with naval assistance. These two options were dispatched to the Caribbean along with the requested pilots. Rochambeau, in a separate letter, urged de Grasse to come to the Chesapeake Bay for operations in Virginia. Following the Wethersfield conference, Rochambeau moved his army to White Plains, New York and placed his command under Washington.

De Grasse received these letters in July at roughly the same time Cornwallis was preparing to occupy Yorktown, Virginia. De Grasse concurred with Rochambeau and subsequently sent a dispatch indicating that he would reach the Chesapeake at the end of August but that agreements with the Spanish meant he could only stay until mid-October. The arrival of his dispatches prompted the Franco-American army to begin a march for Virginia. De Grasse reached the Chesapeake as planned and his troops were sent to assist Lafayette's army in the blockade of Cornwallis. A British fleet sent to confront de Grasse's control of the Chesapeake was defeated by the French on September 5 at the Battle of the Chesapeake and the Newport fleet delivered the French siege train to complete the allied military arrival. The Siege of Yorktown and following surrender by Cornwallis on October 19 were decisive in ending major hostilities in North America.[9]"


Siege of Savannah:


"The battle was one of the bloodiest of the war. While Prevost claimed Franco-American losses at 1,000 to 1,200, the actual tally of 244 killed, nearly 600 wounded and 120 taken prisoner, was severe enough. British casualties were comparatively light: 40 killed, 63 wounded, and 52 missing. Sir Henry Clinton wrote, "I think that this is the greatest event that has happened the whole war," and celebratory cannons were fired when the news reached London.[8]

It was perhaps because of the Siege's reputation as a famous British victory that Charles Dickens chose the siege of Savannah as the place for Joe Willet to be wounded (losing his arm) in the novel Barnaby Rudge.

Three currently-existing Army National Guard units (118th FA,[9] 131st MP[10] and 263rd ADA[11]) are derived from American units that participated in the Siege of Savannah. There are only thirty current U.S. Army units with lineages that go back to the colonial era."



Ever heard of Casimir Pulaski?


"A wounded Pulaski was carried from the field of battle "and taken aboard the privateer merchant brigantine South Carolina privateer brig Wasp under the command of Captain Samuel Bulfinch,[45][46] where he died two days later, having never regained consciousness.[16][32] His death, perceived by American Patriot supporters as heroic, further boosted his reputation in America.[43]

The historical accounts for Pulaski's time and place of burial vary considerably. According to several contemporary accounts there were witnesses, including Pulaski's aide-de-camp, that Pulaski received a symbolic burial in Charleston on October 21,[32] sometime after he was buried at sea.[47] Other witnesses, including Captain Samuel Bulfinch of the Wasp however, claimed that the wounded Pulaski was actually later removed from the ship and taken to the Greenwich plantation in the town of Thunderbolt, near Savannah, where he died and was buried.[48]

In March 1825, during his grand tour of the United States, Lafayette personally laid the cornerstone for the Casimir Pulaski Monument in Savannah, Georgia.[16][49] Remains at Monterey Square in that city, alleged to be Pulaski's, were exhumed in 1996 and examined in a forensic study. The eight-year examination, including DNA analysis, ended inconclusively, although the skeleton is consistent with Pulaski's age and occupation. A healed wound on the skull's forehead is consistent with historical records of an injury Pulaski sustained in battle, as is a bone defect on the left cheekbone, believed to have been caused by a benign tumor.[50] The remains were reinterred with military honors in 2005."



So, yeah. How soon they forget.

[SeaSon]

Ok, so zeehag is an anti American hater. Hates guns and babies too. Thanks for letting us know.

[SeaSon]

Sad that so many on this forum hate Americans. Obviously haters of a nationality are xenophobic racists.

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by JTHAW

eh Vipe...your absolutely right, The Americans should never have entered WW 2 ; you and everyone you know in twerp should be speaking german right now... unbelievable...wtf

Were it not for America there would be only two world languages.

1. German or
2. Japanese

NO other languages.

Hindi, Spanish, Chinese.............all GONE !!

Ungrateful pack of b......s.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by SeaSon

Ok, so zeehag is an anti American hater. Hates guns and babies too. Thanks for letting us know.

Another brilliant and conclusive essay analysis.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

If you pull back and look at it, I think this thread has been rather interesting. At the very beginning, Polux posted what amounted to a caution to cruisers who might carry weapons, citing Indian law, and with a non-cruising example. He included an express admonition to not turn it into a gun thread.

Now, maybe people just wanted to have a gun argument this morning, but it seemed to me as i read along this lengthy thread that the discussion that developed shows clearly that some Americans feel so threatened by the fact that so many countries do not think it necessary to have the same laws as the U.S. that they refuse to take on board that a warning was being given. Wow! And then, of course the thread was diverted, and only gradually, through data, brought to reason. Compared to some of the Europeans, we, in our writings [and perhaps out of patriotism] seem brash, and to use data from not terribly reliable sources, and without citation of sources.

I really wish I understood why it is hard for some Americans to accept the very simple notion: when you take your boat to another country, it's their country, their rules. Period. No matter the policy in their State, or all our USA, it's still the other guys' country, their rules. If you fail to abide by them you risk your boat, and international blackballing; and you risk the possibility of being jailed, or forced to leave. And some countries, you go to jail, and from there you must prove you did not do the crime--there is no presumption of innocence. This isn't new, it has been so for all the years Jim and I have been cruising, and going back a long, long way.

Anyhow, Polux, thanks for starting the thread. I am pretty sure authorities in other countries can tell the difference between cruisers and mercenaries, but many do take their gun and other weapon control laws very seriously, and cruisers should be aware that flouting those laws may have distasteful to disastrous consequences.

Ann

Ann, can you explain to me why this story was some sort of warning to Americans?

There wasn't a single American on board that ship. There were:

12 Indians
3 Ukrainians
6 British
and 14 Estonians.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to direct your comments to those nationalities.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

Ann, can you explain to me why this story was some sort of warning to Americans?

There wasn't a single American on board that ship. There were:

12 Indians
3 Ukrainians
6 British
and 14 Estonians.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to direct your comments to those nationalities.

Perhaps because that's where this thread wandered/drifted. But all the same, it WAS raised and discussed, just like ina normal conversation. I've lived outside the USA and found, upon my return, that many Americans do not have the slightest idea that there is anything beyond their borders.

It is a reality, regardless of the % of Americans having passports. I recall a recent president of ours who didn't have one until he became pres.

IIRC, someone did mention that the ship was owned by Americans although most agree that no Americans were onboard. What's so hard to understand?

Ann's point is very valid, and that's what many of us have been trying to patiently explain, and we're from here, so we know our own fellow citizens.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Attacks? Hardly. It's only an attack if you feel threatened. Why do you feel threatened just by reading someone's opinions. The people who believe there is a "War on Xmas" tend to get that way...

boatman, here's what she said:

another hypocrisy i found was the attitude some have about alleged right to life--- seems only fetuses are allowed that by the spewers of this chant... they will murder physicians and kill staffing in clinics and yell about rights to bear arms--and kill whom they choose to kill in the name of right to life.
imagine how this all looks to the citizens of the nations in which we cruise--


Hypocrisy? Well and truly. "They" also don't support foster kids. Once they're born, those types tend to forget them. [Disclaimer: I'm a foster kid. What would I know? ]

Just some more opinions, not attacks.

When a thread starts off with a post about a vessel with 35 people on board who got convicted of arms violations and were sentenced to 5 yrs each...

and not a single one of them was an American...

and that triggers Zeehag to post this:

ha ha ha the only place to steer clear of is the overly ignorant and violent usa.
sadly this is reality.
arrogance is one thing, imposing ones arrogance on others is unforgiveable.
acting as if one is the policeman for world is arrogance.
PRESUMING the rest of the world is as violent as is usa is arrogance.
PRESUMING that, just because you are a citizen of usa you have right to carry arms into other nations is extreme arrogance. the rights of individuals in usa are merely for usa.
you are NOT covered outside usa borders.
leave your guns at home when you cruise.
avoid problem areas wherein folks are suffering hardship.
donot flaunt your wealth, which, even if you are ssi recipient, is much more than in hands of citizens of the places you travel.
remember a boat is a sign of wealth.
i love reading the ignorant rantings of those who feel the NEED to bear arms in other locales than merely in their on nasty neighborhoods.
makes me laugh my ass off.
ye take weapons into other nations without researching the laws of those locations and then scream bludi murder when you are detained for such behavior.
your actions reflect the nation from which your snakelike bodies slither from the borders. it is unfortunate the usa has individuals such as you to reinforce the ugliness that is the american abroad. shameful.
y'all MUST read "the ugly american". it was a book written about the likes of you all.
perhaps you might drop the narcissistic approach and begin a less obnoxious attitude--perhaps a little more educated and willing to absorb new kinowledge....
try learning what is happening in the world around ye, learn where the hotspots of the world are and avoid em.
the respons to your rantings about your illegal weaponry are hilarious, as you are only ones demanding to bear arms at sea. what ye expecting, a bludi world revolution?? why do you feel NEED to carry armament into these peaceful waters we cruise?? why do you feel your wimpy weaponry will protect you in a war zone??
get real. why do you insist on making all areas in which you feel urge to bring these weapons a war zone--which is what you are doing by bringing weapons of war into the places we cruise.
are you planning to overthrow a govt?? are you planning on killing someone in their own nation>?? what will you do AFTER you shoot someone with your war weapons?? do you think you will be set loose on the countryside and applauded? i think not-- you WILL suffer time in a prison in a third world dick-tatershit waiting forever for trial, which may never come to be. you are in violation of their laws and on their land. yeah usa may come to your rescue, or not.
outside of usa you may find napoleonic law as a base -- you are guilty until proven innocent-- and you will not be proven innocent if you shoot a weapon and injure or kill someone outside usa.
facts is facts. laws are laws. obey them. live in peace.
do you have lots of money??
do you have lots of clout in usa??
if not--leave the stupidity and your clown car in your local pawn shop on your way out of usa.

instead of taking offense at being disallowed weaponry in other nations, try thinking about the consequences of shooting that forbidden weapon in the country in which it is forbidden.
enjoy your alleged rights, but only within your own nation.
you have none outside usa.
usa is only nation allows weaponry for its defense to be in hands of the citizens. think about it a while.
and then there is maritime law, with its ownsets of rules and regulations regarding weaponry.. read em all and understand your tenuous at best standing in and outside of the legal network of the planet.

another hypocrisy i found was the attitude some have about alleged right to life--- seems only fetuses are allowed that by the spewers of this chant... they will murder physicians and kill staffing in clinics and yell about rights to bear arms--and kill whom they choose to kill in the name of right to life.
imagine how this all looks to the citizens of the nations in which we cruise--

keep your testosterone in your pants and guns in the pawn shop when you cruise.
you are supposedly cruising in peace, are you not?
if that is so, why bring war weapons with ye??? is NOT for protection.

as for usa saving anyones asses--- as the situation has been set up by govt of usa, banning armed usa citizens only makes sense. think about it a while. mebbe your narcissistic selves might be able to eek out a thought that is not centered around self.
how soon the cycles of history are forgotten. perhaps due to the fail of education systemless in usa...rodl..
another problem in usa is that the citizens have been dummied down--many of ht e important things to learn have been omitted and banned from education. the kids are being taught the usa is the only intelligence between earth and mars, when in reality, usa has one of the worst education systems and records in planet. the kids are not being taught anything useful anymore. nanny state and political correctness is not education. it is arrogance personified. the ugly american has gotten only uglier than when i first encountered the phenomenon in europe in 1971.

ye do not see other nations producing gun nutz, do ye??/ hell no.
get over your obsession with weaponry. speak peace--do peace. walk your talk

Can you sit there with a straight face and tell me that post wasn't a straight up rant about how she hates America and Americans? I took the liberty of bolding the most egregious parts, in case they weren't glaringly obvious.

What did that rant have to do with anything in the first post, or the actual news article? Nothing, because there weren't ANY Americans on that vessel.

If that wasn't a HUGELY stereotypical blast at all Americans, without a single shred of proof or sources to back any of it up, I don't know what is.

Sure, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but when they're as toxic as that post, don't be surprised if a lot of people lose all respect, sympathy and empathy for the poster.

In the past, I was a big supporter of Zeehag, impressed with her solo cruising lifestyle at her advanced age. Now, I simply don't care, not worth the effort. I certainly wouldn't go off on some rant about octogenarians not being on the internet. While she's on her high horse claiming that Americans are arrogant, narcissistic, ignorant and ugly, I simply will not stoop that low.


To do so would be arrogant, narcissistic, ignorant and ugly.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Polux

Hum, you are exaggerating at least regarding what I see on Europe: some are really, well.... outstanding, meaning everybody can tell they are Americans, but I have found many nice Americans, I mean the kind you cannot tell immediately they are Americans and I am a friend of some.

They, like you, seem more disturbed than me for that kind of attitude some Americans have, that I think is what you are referring to.

At no point in her obscene rant did she discern between "certain" Americans and the rest.

She lumped them all into one big steaming pile of arrogant, narcissistic, ignorant, politically correct ugliness and there is no doubt that it was intentional.

[brianlara 3]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

At no point in her obscene rant did she discern between "certain" Americans and the rest.

She lumped them all into one big steaming pile of arrogant, narcissistic, ignorant, politically correct ugliness and there is no doubt that it was intentional.

Yes, and she's just having a ball winding you up.
Why in Gods name are you defending yourself/selves to this woman?
Respect for her abilities and age go out the door with the vitriol she spews forth.
Aren't you above it?

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

Oh dear I have to challenge that one. The fundamental contract between the state and the citizen is that the citizen agrees to delegate the use of violence in the resolution of a dispute to the state. The state in return agrees to grant and protect certain rights and protect the citizen from external threats. Without this contract the state can have no justice system, cannot collect revenue or form an army. It would therefore not exist in any meaningful definition of a state. So to live in a country is to accept it's legitimate roll in removing the right to use violence in defense of the person, property and rights. The quest is not if but how much. Throughout political history whe have tended to equate greater restriction of personal violence with 'higher' civilization but not everyone agrees with that.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. You seem to be using "violence" and "gun ownership" interchangeably, and obviously, they are two very different things. I own some guns, and yet I've never committed an act of violence.

What most non-Americans don't take into consideration is how important the Constitution is to us, it is the founding document of our nation. In the 2nd Amendment they specifically included the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms as a measure for the citizens to rise up and overthrow the gov't as they had just done with the British.

To many of us who cherish our right to keep and bear arms, it's not a weapon to be used for violence, but for protection against tyranny or a gov't run amok. There have been many many instances of such gov'ts all over the world, especially in Africa, and we don't ever want that to happen here. It's not about shooting anyone or flaunting them or trying to be a hero, it's a very real symbol to me, at least, that the true power of our gov't rests with the people, not the bureaucracy.

Even though many Americans own guns, it certainly hasn't affected the gov't collecting taxes or enforcing the laws. Having a gun can be compared to the US gov't having ICBMs with nuclear warheads on submarines roaming the waters where no one can find them. Sure, we hope we never have to use them, but just having them out there keeps a lot of other gov'ts nice and polite.

A brief point on 'ante-Americanism'. All the US citizens I have met have been great. The USA based global corporations, military and religious fundamentalist on the other hand scare me to death and are reeking havoc in the world. Given a choice between ending ISIS and ending Monsanto I would go for Monsanto every time. So it is not you, the individual US citizen, that others see as the problem but rather the corporate and military might other wield both in your name and with your consent, well with your consent to the degree that the USA is a democracy. (it is quite easy to argue it is not really democratic but rather an industrial oligarchy)

That's an interesting way of looking at things. The religious fundamentalists are pretty harmless, for the most part. Aside from a few abortion clinics, they aren't killing that many people, especially compared to ISIS, talk about religious fundamentalists, with heavy emphasis on "mental."

Yes, the global corporations all seem to act as if they are above the law, but it's not exclusive to US based ones. A good example: rebuilt injectors for a GM truck cost $4,000 a set. Why? Because Bosch, a German company, has a worldwide monopoly on common rail diesel fuel injection systems. Any diesel engine with a common rail injection system uses Bosch injectors, period. That kind of monopoly should never have been allowed to happen. You'll soon see the problem with common rail injection on all of the new Yanmar (and other?) marine engines.

Yes, I agree that Monsanto is a big problem, but I'd prefer a solution where ISIS bombs Monsanto while Monsanto poisons ISIS and both birds get killed with one stone. Finally, the US is not a democracy, it's been called a Constitution based Federal Republic, but I agree with you, like many governments around the world, it is more accurately an industrial oligarchy.

[latka]

Originally Posted by Jdege

Every individual, in every nation, throughout all of human history, has had the individual right to keep and bear arms for defense of himself, his family, and his community. The only question is whether this right is recognized by the government, or infringed by it.

Most, throughout history, have infringed upon it, to various degrees.

We need to recognize that infringement, and find ways to deal with it.

But we must never accept that that infringement can ever be justified.

This is just getting way too crazy guys! And I fear that many individuals with the same opinion are on the loose throughout the world. A scary thought indeed!