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Moody46CC · 19-01-2016, 10:24

Someone said Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill were at Potsdam (July 1945). No. Roosevelt was dead (April 1945) and Truman was president, and in the middle of Potsdam, Churchill was repudiated by the English in an election and replaced by Attlee.

Yes, the Germans were beaten at Stalingrad in November 1942-February 1943, but they still managed to launch one last, major offensive in 1943 at Kursk. The Germans lost close to 200K at Stalingrad. I think they lost more in North Africa. After Operation Torch, Hitler foolishly sent reinforcements. I believe 275K surrendered in Tunisia. Some were Italians, but most were German.

Sailing55 · 19-01-2016, 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by denverd0n

Yep. Another one goes off the rails when people (on both sides of this debate) believe that their attitude is the one and only correct way to think.

Grow up! All of you!

Actually, I find it enlightening. It is this type of "debate" that allows us to understand peoples true feelings. I for one like to know how people process information...and know who to avoid in the future.

Hateful people are to be avoided at all costs...they are dangerous.

Vipe6 · 19-01-2016, 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by alha

Interesting take on it, and I am not trying to minimize the contributions of the soviets in any way, they paid a hellacious price, much much much more than we did, by an order of magnitude. I believe that although the bombing raids weren't nearly as precise as they were advertised at the time they happened during the war, the effect on morale of the German people by mid-late 1943 was significant(how can killing 300,000 civilians and rendering millions homeless not have any effect on it?), and made them disperse the production of many things, which made the whole process horribly inefficient, thereby hastening the end of the war.

But again, Russia paid a horrible price for the war, though I believe that your conclusion that they won the war almost but not quite singlehandedly is a bit of a stretch, there was a lot more going on than just the eastern front. It was more significant to Hitler at the time (I believe he was thinking of their vast resources for one thing), but he was expending his resources in Africa, the north Atlantic, and even building the 'Impenetrable Wall' around the coast of France. Basically, in the simplest terms, trying to do way too much, with not nearly enough. Hubris, plain and simple.

I'd never want to underestimate the efforts that were being brought on the western front by all allies, including the americans. It was keeping the nazis busy on two fronts that eventually broke them. This discussion only started because someone said for the umpthied time we should be grateful to the us for saving us in WW2. If so, we should be equally grateful to the soviets (and that massmurderer stalin).

SpiritofGlenans · 19-01-2016, 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritofGlenans

Wow, I've actually got to the end, I thought it was going to continue expanding faster than I could type

Sigh! I think I'll give up now

Polux · 19-01-2016, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by morven55

Why don't you tell us of the arrogance you came in contact with. You are one of the most vicious people posting here. I would love to hear how your hatred of an entire nation began. ....

I don't see him being impolite or calling others son, that it seems to me is a pejorative way to call an adult male. He is entitled to have his opinion regarding American foreign policy but I don't see anything related with hate in what regards is views, that we can agree with or not.

I do see some hate here, but probably I am just misunderstanding what has been said by someone else:"I thank GD for the USA and I will always defend her against the scum of the world who disrespect and show hostility to the greatest democracy on the planet. "

This does mean that the ones that disagree with American foreign Policies and show no respect to those policies, even hostility to them are "the scum of the earth"? If so, talk about arrogance

And why the greatest democracy? If it is in what regards number of electors it is India. If it is in what regards quality, countries like UK or Sweden seem to me a better example in what regards civil rights, social care and Sweden specially in what concerns foreign policy.

reed1v · 19-01-2016, 10:27

In actuality, the two front war did Hitler in. If he had only waited till he conquered Europe and then attacked the Soviets, he would have won the war. Shows you what impatience can do to the best laid plans. If he had not fought with his military advisers and pushed ahead with the A-bomb, the entire world would have been conquered. So the lesson is 1. Patience pays; and 2. listen to your experts. Oh, and 3. stop being a non smoking, non drinking, vegetarian.

Sailing55 · 19-01-2016, 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freemind

I sure hope so. It's been a long while since I've been to Europe, but people seemed friendly then.

I certainly wish the folks that hate us so much would send back all the money we have sent them over the years.
I'm wondering if there is a forum for cruisers from the USA only.

A USA only forum is beginning to sound good. LOL!

Vipe6 · 19-01-2016, 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freemind

I sure hope so. It's been a long while since I've been to Europe, but people seemed friendly then.

I certainly wish the folks that hate us so much would send back all the money we have sent them over the years.
I'm wondering if there is a forum for cruisers from the USA only.

What money? I don't see any dollars in my pocket.

Sailing55 · 19-01-2016, 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by reed1v

In actuality, the two front war did Hitler in. If he had only waited till he conquered Europe and then attacked the Soviets, he would have won the war. Shows you what impatience can do to the best laid plans. If he had not fought with his military advisers and pushed ahead with the A-bomb, the entire world would have been conquered. So the lesson is 1. Patience pays; and 2. listen to your experts. Oh, and 3. stop being a non smoking, non drinking, vegetarian.

LOL! I am convinced it was the veggie diet that did him in!

**Dockhead** · 19-01-2016, 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritofGlenans

What about North Africa and Italy in 1943?

Minor side shows. 2,715 Americans killed in the whole North African campaign -- there were plenty of bloodier hours on the Eastern Front.

Likewise, there were a total of only 60,000 Allied KIA (including U.S., Brits, colonials) in the entire Italian campaign. A rounding error, compared to the real war taking place in the East. About 11 million KIA on the Eastern Front, plus 4 or 5 million died in captivity; 10's of millions of civilian casualties.

Muckle Flugga · 19-01-2016, 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moody46CC

Someone said Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill were at Potsdam (July 1945). No. Roosevelt was dead (April 1945) and Truman was president, and in the middle of Potsdam, Churchill was repudiated by the English in an election and replaced by Attlee.

Yes, the Germans were beaten at Stalingrad in November 1942-February 1943, but they still managed to launch one last, major offensive in 1943 at Kursk. The Germans lost close to 200K at Stalingrad. I think they lost more in North Africa. After Operation Torch, Hitler foolishly sent reinforcements. I believe 275K surrendered in Tunisia. Some were Italians, but most were German.

Are you kidding? Total German Losses in North Africa: 18,594 dead, 130,000 captured. Total German Losses on the Eastern Front: 4,300,000 dead; 3,300,000 captured. Total Soviet forces losses on Eastern Front: 10,651,000 dead; 5,280,000 captured.

Cadence · 19-01-2016, 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vipe6

Indeed, Italy was sooner, my mistake but the discussion was initially about the soviets beating the hell out of the nazis before the other allied forces landed in europe. And the nazis took their most serious blow in stalingrad (and moscow). That was my point.

The Soviets were also being supplied with equipment by the US. They did pay a hell of a price in fatalities and burning everything. In the end it was probably the winter that defeated the Nazis. They hadn't studied history or Hitler was that arrogant

Someone ask about boots on the ground prior to 1944. Forgot WW I?

Vipe6 · 19-01-2016, 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by reed1v

In actuality, the two front war did Hitler in. If he had only waited till he conquered Europe and then attacked the Soviets, he would have won the war. Shows you what impatience can do to the best laid plans. If he had not fought with his military advisers and pushed ahead with the A-bomb, the entire world would have been conquered. So the lesson is 1. Patience pays; and 2. listen to your experts. Oh, and 3. stop being a non smoking, non drinking, vegetarian.

Not invading the soviet union was not an option as he needed the oil and other resources. In fact WW2 was started just to get to the resources in the east. He attacked the west first because the western countries declared war over poland.