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Old 31-03-2016, 02:08   #91
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

How can you the score cats 1- mono-0 when the monos all came upright after the broach,
whereas the cats go upside down and stay there.
Has someone got a photo of a self-righting cat lifeboat ?
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Old 31-03-2016, 02:45   #92
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

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How can you the score cats 1- mono-0 when the monos all came upright after the broach,
whereas the cats go upside down and stay there.
Has someone got a photo of a self-righting cat lifeboat ?
yeah, the trouble it they have to come up in less than 20 seconds not to run out of air and die, and even then injuries, unconsciousness have ability to harm bad.

Really the only storm option for mono folk is to go in the hull due to susceptibility of monos to be turned by relatively small 3-4m breaking wave.

You typically need 7m one for cat which is considerably less common.
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Old 31-03-2016, 02:54   #93
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

We will have to agree to differ it is strange how the divergence of multi v mono
brings out so much passion I would no more sail a Lagoon 40 than you would sail
my 46 foot wood epoxy cutter.
I am sure you are all decent sailors and I am sure you could get pills for your multi
hull tendencies.
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Old 31-03-2016, 02:57   #94
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

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Originally Posted by Mogga View Post
We will have to agree to differ it is strange how the divergence of multi v mono
brings out so much passion I would no more sail a Lagoon 40 than you would sail
my 46 foot wood epoxy cutter.
I am sure you are all decent sailors and I am sure you could get pills for your multi
hull tendencies.
nope, once you step on cat is too late.
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Old 31-03-2016, 05:42   #95
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
yeah, the trouble it they have to come up in less than 20 seconds not to run out of air and die, and even then injuries, unconsciousness have ability to harm bad.

Really the only storm option for mono folk is to go in the hull due to susceptibility of monos to be turned by relatively small 3-4m breaking wave.

You typically need 7m one for cat which is considerably less common.
That's the kind of fundamentalism that makes desirable not to have separated forums. Yes cats have advantages having a bigger stability but they can be capsized by wind alone and some have been so in anchorages without any sail on.

So let's stop that bullshit that mine is better than yours and assume that both types have advantages and disadvantages in what regards stability.

Regarding being capsized by waves it is true that a cat with the same length has a bigger resistance to be capsized by a breaking wave if wind is not involved. But that is almost never the case and cats are mostly capsized by a combination of gusts and waves.

In what regards to dissipate the force of a gust a monohull is incomparably better and do so by heeling while the cat keeps receives the full blow of a gust while facing a breaking wave. That on a mixed situation of breaking waves and wind puts the balance more equal between the two types.

Also while a cat will reach the non return point at 70Ί or so, most monohulls will only reach that point at about 120Ί and while a monohull capsized at 90Ί will offer very little surface for a breaking wave to induce a rotational movement and still has a considerable righting moment, a cat heeled at 70Ί offers a huge surface for a second breaking wave to apply a rotational movement and no righting moment at all. It is also good to point out that most boats capsized by breaking waves are capsized by a succession of two close breaking waves.

Even if not heeled face to a breaking have the big lateral surface of a cat will offer a much bigger surface to be applied a rotational moment by a breaking wave.

Cats if not having keels (even if most of them have) offer the same advantage has monohulls with lifting centerboards regarding the ability to dissipate a breaking wave by a sliding movement.

That tripping effect is as bigger as the surface of the immersed part of the hull, namely the keels. Cats with keels have shallow but longer keels than most modern mono-hulls and the difference in surface should not be big, it is big however regarding old designed boats with full deep keels or with modified fin keels that offer in fact a bigger tripping potential.

Cats once capsized will stay capsized and most monohulls with about 120Ί AVS will need in average about a minute to return to its feet. That is the time needed for a much smaller wave to help putting it on his feet. Boats with a better AVS will be on is feet faster and over 150Ί we can consider that will be practically immediate. Many times if the wave is really big the boat is simply rolled and returns to his feet with the same wave.

Now you can call me a cat hater for just providing a fair comparison regarding stability characteristics between both types.
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Old 31-03-2016, 05:54   #96
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
nope, once you step on cat is too late.
There you go with that fundamentalist theory that once one sails a cat will never return to a mono. You should read a thread about guys that passed from cats to monos. They explain why.

Not saying (like you) that one type is better than other, simply that different sailors will chose differently according with many different preferences.

The fact that there are many more choosing monohulls then multihulls should give you a hint that different sailors with different tastes and needs chose different boats, but reality seems not be enough to turn off your bias toward a given type.

Not that your personal preference regarding cats is wrong, trying to impose that preference to others as the only rational choice is what is wrong.
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Old 31-03-2016, 06:04   #97
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogga View Post
How can you the score cats 1- mono-0 when the monos all came upright after the broach,
whereas the cats go upside down and stay there.
Has someone got a photo of a self-righting cat lifeboat ?
Yep its stored with the photos of the self resurfacing sucken monos.

FFS
How many times do we have to listen to this crap
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Old 31-03-2016, 06:14   #98
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

Very well put Polux I like your link on interesting sail boats.
Years ago I would have been up for a Figaro I did own a UFO 34 way back
and I went over a Besteaver 45 at a boat show once. there is a Cigale 16 near us and it is for sale. But I have been looking at Halberg Rassey 53s recently I do like
the way they take a 220h.p engine, and down rate it to 145h.p. so it revs slowly,
, proper water filters, above the water line waste tanks that empty by gravity, shaft driven steering with stainless universal joints. They are built more like a commercial vessel a proper Yacht.I think they would be the ultimate cruiser for me.
I wait for the replies to rocket in
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Old 31-03-2016, 06:16   #99
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

lets leave mono-cat thing for another day.

I do not have experience in such seas. However, my observation, cat starting turning around because of wave... Same wave will induce counter force on hull in water because travels same direction as direction of roll. That is why cats flip less often than one would intuitively expect.

As you know in azores 2015, many monos rolled. Cat L 400 did not and was destroyed and sunk by the rescue ship, based on my limited french.

so the choice is say 10 rolls where you have 90 % chance to survive each roll for 1 cat flip.

Everyone different taste for danger.
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Old 31-03-2016, 06:19   #100
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
....

I think around a 50 foot cat would be better managed by a cruising couple.
...
Yes I agree that is the best size for a long range cruising cat and it is not by accident that most designs really suited for that have around that size. Some are slightly smaller but that is just not for a convenience point of view but by a question of cost.

50ft still allows a manageable boat for two and provides the needed stability to make it a very safe boat, provided it is not a true performance cruiser (several of those on that range size have capsized).

We can say that a cat with bigger sails and a lesser ratio between stability and sail can always be sailed with less sail area but those capsizes with very experienced sailors at the wheel shows that if someone has that possibility more sail will be used than on a less performance boat.

It should also be pointed out that while on a performance monohull the stability can be increased (and is increased) by a higher percentage of ballast and deeper keels, that can provide lighter but more stable boats, on a multihull with 50ft, beam is not different between a performance cruising one and a heavier cruising one.

That means that on a cat performance cruiser the stability is always smaller than on a similar sized heavier boat while proportionally more sail area is available on the lighter less stable boat. Not a good combination for safety specially in what regards cruising.

This leads me to say that a boat like the Gunboat 66 would have not the ideal characteristics for an ideal long range cruising boats neither any true performance cruising cat. Of course for ideal I am referring to what most people would see as characteristics of a long range cruising boat should have regarding space, seaworthiness, stability and sailing characteristics. Different sailors would have different options.
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Old 31-03-2016, 06:21   #101
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

I would agree to leave it for another day I spend more time looking at forecasts to avoid such dramas ,and this makes the 100 posts.
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Old 31-03-2016, 06:34   #102
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogga View Post
Very well put Polux I like your link on interesting sail boats.
Years ago I would have been up for a Figaro I did own a UFO 34 way back
and I went over a Besteaver 45 at a boat show once. there is a Cigale 16 near us and it is for sale. But I have been looking at Halberg Rassey 53s recently I do like
the way they take a 220h.p engine, and down rate it to 145h.p. so it revs slowly,
, proper water filters, above the water line waste tanks that empty by gravity, shaft driven steering with stainless universal joints. They are built more like a commercial vessel a proper Yacht.I think they would be the ultimate cruiser for me.
I wait for the replies to rocket in
I believe that the Cigale 16 is a better sailing boat while the Halberg Rassy 53 has a more comfortable interior and will motor better. The Cigale will sail in many conditions were the HR will have to motor.

I would say that if you are can live happily with the Cigale 16 interior you should test sail it and then test sail the HR53. Nothing like reality to detail our choices.

Never sailed a Cigale but I had the feed back of a sailor that has a Cigale 14 and I can tell you that he only says wonders about his boat. I have no doubt that it is a great sailing boat, as well as the HR 53, the problem here is to know which one will suit you better...and you should not let the interior decide the matter, if you can live with the one of the Cigale
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Old 31-03-2016, 06:45   #103
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
...
As you know in azores 2015, many monos rolled. Cat L 400 did not and was destroyed and sunk by the rescue ship, based on my limited french.

so the choice is say 10 rolls where you have 90 % chance to survive each roll for 1 cat flip.

Everyone different taste for danger.
Yes I remember to follow that storm and those boats but I am quite sure that not many mono-hulls were rolled and I don't remember any being rolled. They were abandoned because they were afraid that could happen, like the ones on that cat.

The fact is that many sailors can stand a lot less then what their boats can stand and in case of doubt they opt to be rescued.

There was a quite small monohull among those boats whose crew resisted to abandon the sailboat due to fear and brought it back safely to Madeira.
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Old 31-03-2016, 07:00   #104
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Re: Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

No doubt the Cigale is a better sailing boat it is considerably lighter,I have to consider my wife nowadays,and she does not like the Rassey much,so we will probably stick with
what we have had for the last 12 years.
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Old 31-03-2016, 07:38   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Getting back to the topic - the ultimate fast cruiser, if not the Gunboat 66, then what?

For mine a 66 foot cat is too big for a couple. OK if it's a couple with grown up kids.

I think around a 50 foot cat would be better managed by a cruising couple.
I know what you are saying here about 50 footer for a couple verses 60 plus. I've just always felt that the 40-50 footer suffered somewhat more with the wave troughs of the open ocean.

I've often preached giving the hulls a little extra length, BUT don't load up those 'hull extensions' with accommodations, or machinery, etc,...leave them empty. And size the rig as though it was a good performing 50 footer. this can also keep the building price down, if properly negotiated up front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I also think Gunboats tend to be too loaded up with "luxury" stuff, AC systems, big diesel gensets etc. They're too complicated for my taste. And too heavy, because of this. And because they're too heavy they need too big a rig and sailplan to get the performance.
Agreed with that 'complication factor' of lots of 'luxury items'. But don't tell that to the wife who often is half of the buying decision. Many of them are too use to their landbased house.
That old KISS principle can come into effect when the owner or repair person has to be constantly maintaining those 'systems'.



I've always been a fan of MotorSailers, both catamaran and monohull versions. This subject thread likely includes both types:

Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers
Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers - Boat Design Forums

Motor/Sailer Design Expedition Yacht

Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden
Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden - Boat Design Forums
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