Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-10-2013, 22:55   #136
Registered User
 
sabray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,169
It's already in place. My 23 year old is covered while she gets her feat set. Repeal would have her without coverage.
This is not about a passed law. It's about prominence and control. Appearance and fear. Mostly it's about power and ego.
Tiny bit about fiscal responsibility. I don't think the radical liberal or conservative view will last. Libertarians with liberal views will prevail .
Here is why. Tea party Christian views are not in sync with progressive youth. Management models show that diverse and refined management will be more effective then select and threatening policy.
Modern libertarians will prevail. We will vote for protection of life, liberty and property. Health care equal rights and respect for ownership of innovation and property rights.
__________________

__________________
sabray is offline  
Old 05-10-2013, 23:24   #137
Registered User
 
ElGatoGordo's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Kemah, TX
Boat: Jim Michalak designed 25' Caprice and Self Design 32' Shantymaran
Posts: 711
Re: Govt Shutdown Impact on Boaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I immigrated to this country. It was a long and arduous process. I am an American citizen now. I believe in the American people and the system. Just because times are bad and the political system not exactly working, doesn't mean I cut my losses and run. I'm also one that has never "worked the system", like some do. If it is all that bad, I'm sure you have a back-up plan for retirement. After all...you wouldn't want to be taken care of by such a bad system.
There is something wrong with the way politics are in the US. But running is like throwing in the towel. I love adventure but I'm no coward. People make the changes. In history, they always have.
Well said Friend...I'm glad you're here! I always say to people who say "I might leave..." DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOU..." It ain't perfect here, but It's sure as hell NOT THE WORST!
__________________

__________________
------------------
Gordo
ElGatoGordo is offline  
Old 05-10-2013, 23:33   #138
Registered User
 
Doodles's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Virginia, USA & Krabi, Thailand
Boat: Wauquiez Pretorien 35; Nordica 16
Posts: 2,810
Images: 1
Re: Govt Shutdown Impact on Boaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
It's already in place. My 23 year old is covered while she gets her feat set. Repeal would have her without coverage.
This is not about a passed law. It's about prominence and control. Appearance and fear. Mostly it's about power and ego.
Tiny bit about fiscal responsibility. I don't think the radical liberal or conservative view will last. Libertarians with liberal views will prevail .
Here is why. Tea party Christian views are not in sync with progressive youth. Management models show that diverse and refined management will be more effective then select and threatening policy.
Modern libertarians will prevail. We will vote for protection of life, liberty and property. Health care equal rights and respect for ownership of innovation and property rights.
I'm not sure what a "modern libertarian" is but I sort of like the sound of it.

As for Tea Party Christian views not being in sync with progressive youth, I'd say they aren't in sync with anyone but themselves.
__________________
Mundis Ex Igne Factus Est
Doodles is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 00:05   #139
Registered User
 
sabray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,169
I made it up. It fits me as a one who likes the idea Of universal health care. The government responsibility of protecting life. The protection of liberty. Meaning Government does not recognize you with difference to religion ethnicity or belief. Property is enforced as an idea or content that is owned by you. The use sale or exploitation our government protects as yours.
Not sure what they are doing in DC but it does not reflect the duty I think the constitution was based on. Protection of life liberty and property.
__________________
sabray is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 04:53   #140
Registered User
 
SV Sea Monkey's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Annapolis, MD
Boat: Island Packet 35
Posts: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
I made it up. It fits me as a one who likes the idea Of universal health care. The government responsibility of protecting life. The protection of liberty. Meaning Government does not recognize you with difference to religion ethnicity or belief. Property is enforced as an idea or content that is owned by you. The use sale or exploitation our government protects as yours. Not sure what they are doing in DC but it does not reflect the duty I think the constitution was based on. Protection of life liberty and property.
To avoid confusion, you might want to clarify any differences between your "modern libertarian" and the Libertarian Party: http://www.lp.org/issues/healthcare

Your ideas on health care sound quite different.
__________________
SV Sea Monkey is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 05:14   #141
Senior Cruiser
 
Kenomac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Somewhere in the Adriatic Sea
Boat: Oyster 53 Cutter
Posts: 8,511
Re: Govt Shutdown Impact on Boaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
It's already in place. My 23 year old is covered while she gets her feat set. Repeal would have her without coverage.
This is not about a passed law. It's about prominence and control. Appearance and fear. Mostly it's about power and ego.
Tiny bit about fiscal responsibility. I don't think the radical liberal or conservative view will last. Libertarians with liberal views will prevail .
Here is why. Tea party Christian views are not in sync with progressive youth. Management models show that diverse and refined management will be more effective then select and threatening policy.
Modern libertarians will prevail. We will vote for protection of life, liberty and property. Health care equal rights and respect for ownership of innovation and property rights.
Libertarians don't believe in the universal healthcare model you put forth. Libertarians believe in liberty, not fascism and forced redistribution of wealth.... Go to the CATO Institute website and do your homework before making such ridiculous statements.
__________________
Kenomac is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 05:37   #142
Registered User
 
jeanathon's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: WNC mountains U.S.
Boat: 1968 Hinterhoel Redwing
Posts: 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray
I made it up. It fits me as a one who likes the idea Of universal health care.
It is not health care. It is insurance. That is why insurance companies love it. Forced buyers.
The issue should be the cost of health care, but no one is lobbying to lower that. Hmm wonder why???
__________________
Let's ban together to ban sillycone....
jeanathon is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 09:37   #143
Registered User
 
Cormorant's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Catskill Mountains when not cruising
Boat: 31' homebuilt Michalak-designed Cormorant "Sea Fever"
Posts: 2,073
Re: Govt Shutdown Impact on Boaters

Came across this letter to "The Atlantic" magazine on their website, dealing with how the shutdown affects the Coast Guard's ability to predict drift of, say, a boat in distress.
Thank you for your columns on the shut-down. I'm a non-essential civil servant at NOAA so I am home without pay.

The public is being told that the government is operating in a limited way to do what is necessary to protect life and property. I am writing to tell you an example of how the shut-down affects that behind the scenes.

If a plane has to ditch, a boat is swamped, or someone falls overboard at sea, Coast Guard will do the search and rescue. No doubt the folks at CG who do that are essential and not furloughed. When they get a report of a man overboard the first thing they will do is put a marker at the last known location into two ocean models. These models mean to predict where the people and things on the surface will drift as time goes on, pushed by winds and currents.
There are two models, a Navy model and the NOAA RTOFS [Real Time Ocean Forecast System] model, and they'll give slightly different answers, which is good, so CG will get a sense of the uncertainties in the model forecasts. (The models have essentially the same physics embodied in their computer code but they have slightly different ways of assimilating wind data.)

I suppose the people at Coast Guard believe the models are reliable, and probably no one has told them that the models can get less reliable every day that the government is shut down. But the ocean circulation part of the model relies on assimilating data from active radar satellites that measure ocean surface wind speed, wave height, and "dynamic topography", which is the ocean equivalent of what high and low pressure systems are in the atmosphere. If the ocean model doesn't get these data, its prediction of currents gradually 'relaxes' (decays, more or less exponentially) away from a good approximation of the truth and toward an overall background state that is a climatological average.
An analogous situation in weather forecasting would be if you stopped giving the computer models any info about barometric pressure, clouds, winds, and humidity, and then watched what happened to the accuracy of the daily forecast. Before long the forecast would have no fronts, shears, weather, etc. and would just look the same over hundreds of miles, just the background climate.

NOAA operates only one of these active radar satellites for making these essential ocean measurements. .. To make a decent ocean forecast you need at least three of these satellites. There are three, but NOAA treats the other two as 'research', done on a 'best-effort' basis, and the scientists who built that research capacity are all out on furlough. If their computers go down, they aren't allowed back into their building to reboot, and the ocean forecast will quickly become useless for search and rescue.

(Incidentally, the big international, once-a-year science conference on this kind of satellite oceanography is scheduled for next week but unless the government reopens, the NOAA scientists can't go.)

So why aren't all three satellite data streams deemed essential? Basically, it is money. The US isn't investing in satellite technology as it should....

So 'best effort basis' is how we do things, because it gives us flexibility and it is so much cheaper. But it means that (probably not just n Coast Guard search and rescue but in all kinds of stuff throughout the intelligence, defense, and civilian safety sectors) there are downstream things that are 'essential' that depend on (in ways the decision makers may not even be aware of) upstream stuff that is shut-down.
Thank you for your columns on the shut-down. I'm a non-essential civil servant at NOAA so I am home without pay.

The public is being told that the government is operating in a limited way to do what is necessary to protect life and property. I am writing to tell you an example of how the shut-down affects that behind the scenes.

If a plane has to ditch, a boat is swamped, or someone falls overboard at sea, Coast Guard will do the search and rescue. No doubt the folks at CG who do that are essential and not furloughed. When they get a report of a man overboard the first thing they will do is put a marker at the last known location into two ocean models. These models mean to predict where the people and things on the surface will drift as time goes on, pushed by winds and currents.
There are two models, a Navy model and the NOAA RTOFS [Real Time Ocean Forecast System] model, and they'll give slightly different answers, which is good, so CG will get a sense of the uncertainties in the model forecasts. (The models have essentially the same physics embodied in their computer code but they have slightly different ways of assimilating wind data.)

I suppose the people at Coast Guard believe the models are reliable, and probably no one has told them that the models can get less reliable every day that the government is shut down. But the ocean circulation part of the model relies on assimilating data from active radar satellites that measure ocean surface wind speed, wave height, and "dynamic topography", which is the ocean equivalent of what high and low pressure systems are in the atmosphere. If the ocean model doesn't get these data, its prediction of currents gradually 'relaxes' (decays, more or less exponentially) away from a good approximation of the truth and toward an overall background state that is a climatological average.
An analogous situation in weather forecasting would be if you stopped giving the computer models any info about barometric pressure, clouds, winds, and humidity, and then watched what happened to the accuracy of the daily forecast. Before long the forecast would have no fronts, shears, weather, etc. and would just look the same over hundreds of miles, just the background climate.

NOAA operates only one of these active radar satellites for making these essential ocean measurements. .. To make a decent ocean forecast you need at least three of these satellites. There are three, but NOAA treats the other two as 'research', done on a 'best-effort' basis, and the scientists who built that research capacity are all out on furlough. If their computers go down, they aren't allowed back into their building to reboot, and the ocean forecast will quickly become useless for search and rescue.

(Incidentally, the big international, once-a-year science conference on this kind of satellite oceanography is scheduled for next week but unless the government reopens, the NOAA scientists can't go.)

So why aren't all three satellite data streams deemed essential? Basically, it is money. The US isn't investing in satellite technology as it should....

So 'best effort basis' is how we do things, because it gives us flexibility and it is so much cheaper. But it means that (probably not just n Coast Guard search and rescue but in all kinds of stuff throughout the intelligence, defense, and civilian safety sectors) there are downstream things that are 'essential' that depend on (in ways the decision makers may not even be aware of) upstream stuff that is shut-down.
__________________
Cormorant is online now  
Old 06-10-2013, 09:54   #144
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,943
Re: Govt Shutdown Impact on Boaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
... The government responsibility of protecting life. The protection of liberty. Meaning Government does not recognize you with difference to religion ethnicity or belief. Property is enforced as an idea or content that is owned by you. The use sale or exploitation our government protects as yours.
This.

When the US founders declared that every man was created equal, and entitled to "life, liberty, and purfuit of happineff"... these were radical ideas at the time. But it's a fundamental part of the world's most dynamic country.

I happen to think that health care is the next logical step, that making health care a right, and using a country's clout and collective power to make sure it's available, high quality, and affordable is appropriate use of government power.

The idea, for example, that some Americans are stuck in lousy jobs because they're terrified of losing medical coverage... why would you tolerate that?
__________________
Lake-Effect is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 09:56   #145
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cruising NC, FL, Bahamas, TCI & VIs
Boat: 1964 Pearson Ariel 'Faith' / Pearson 424, sv Emerald Tide
Posts: 1,531
Re: Govt Shutdown Impact on Boaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
SM, the last federal shutdown was the same. Government staffers are applying the letter of the law, no more and no less.

There's ONE reason why the GOP is fighting so hard against Obamacare: as piecemeal as it is, once it's implemented and and working, people are still gonna LIKE having it, it will be untouchable, and the the "small-government" movement will be set back decades.
Wow, I am so glad you respect the forum so much... Thanks for avoiding politics....
__________________
s/v 'Faith' is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 10:04   #146
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,387
Re: Govt Shutdown Impact on Boaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
About 17% of the fed govt is "shutdown" yet we are seeing how far reaching is the impact on certain user groups.
For those of you who say: "Who cares?" and poke fun at parks and monuments closing, why not ask yourselves these kinds of questions first:

1. Would YOU like to have 17% taken off your income without notice for NO reason?

2. Would you like it if the gas attendant at your fuel station shorted you 17% fuel but still charged you the full amount?

3. Would you like it if your sailmaker built your new mainsail, but only gave you the part above the first reef point?

4. Would you like it if your new furling gear only came with the top swivel?
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 10:18   #147
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,770
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Govt Shutdown Impact on Boaters

Lake Mead property owners forced out until shutdown ends - www.ktnv.com
zeehag is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 10:28   #148
Registered User
 
Sand crab's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Boat: 34' Crowther tri sold 16' Kayak now
Posts: 3,157
Re: Govt Shutdown Impact on Boaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard5 View Post
It's now violation of federal law to even walk on a beach on federal lands.
Not correct. It's only on those very few areas administered by the National Park Service which is probably about 1-1,000,000th of the total beach area. There are many areas where federal lands are on the (ocean) beach and they are still open.
I live in Montana and I don't hunt but everybody I know does. I can assure you that those hunters are out there today on federal lands. We have a few very large lakes and those beaches are open.

PS I eat game meat just about every week. That's one advantage.
__________________
We don't need no stinking badges.
Sand crab is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 10:43   #149
Registered User

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto
Boat: Sandpiper 565
Posts: 2,943
Re: Govt Shutdown Impact on Boaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v 'Faith' View Post
Wow, I am so glad you respect the forum so much... Thanks for avoiding politics....
This thread's been political since post #1... that boat has sailed, for better or worse.

Actually, I think my statement was fairly neutral. Political yes, but not with a bias. Whether or not you support ACA... what's the self-interest of those in the House? The parties, or factions within the parties? What makes the ACA, over any other issue or program, worthy of this stand-off, from an "inside the Beltway" position?
__________________
Lake-Effect is offline  
Old 06-10-2013, 10:58   #150
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,387
Re: Govt Shutdown Impact on Boaters

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
What makes the ACA, over any other issue or program, worthy of this stand-off, from an "inside the Beltway" position?
None.

It's basic stupidity on the part of a few jokers plus Speaker Boner...Bonehead, you name it.
__________________

__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Random Stops of Boaters Unconstitutional rognvald Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 40 13-07-2013 23:52
Fibreglass vs Aluminium Impact Strength europaflyer Monohull Sailboats 257 21-02-2013 05:31
Spanish & French Guides for Boaters GordMay The Library 1 14-06-2012 13:48



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:54.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.