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Old 04-09-2012, 21:37   #76
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

Long distance anything can be a mess. I rent rooms in my house, ive heard of people paying their damage deposit and first months rent several months in advance, the landlord taking the money, and when they arrive the room was rented and they were out their rent, damage, and despite careful planning and payment in good faith suddenly found themselves homeless with a truckload of stuff and nowhere to put it. Of course there was no paperwork so they faced either kissing the money goodbye or a long tedious battle to get it refunded in a he said she said battle in the court.

Its always a better idea to see your product in person, you can get a better feel for the seller and people who sell to people over the net often take a glass half empty approach (they probably arent serious about coming all the way here, they will probably find something local and drop contact) because it happens all the time.

I would imagine it would be no different with boats than anything else. Realtors experience the same problem, thats why they barely give you the time of day until you actually show up to look at the place.
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Old 05-09-2012, 10:29   #77
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

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Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
I will wade into the mess ....
I too made offers sight unseen and none were deemed acceptable by the sellers. Like terminalcitygrl, I was not about to spend several thousand dollars to fly out and look at a boat without some reasonable assurance that the boat would be there when I got there and that the boat would be in the price bracket that I was willing to pay. As it turned out, Valiants are well overpriced as far as I am concerned but apparently there are others that are willing to pay collector prices.
Wow, bitter much? Or, there are others of us who are willing to be patient and wait for the right boat to come along, sometimes even a Valiant :-). BTW, while I think I paid a fair price for ours, the few people in the know that I've felt comfortable enough to tell what I spent keep telling me I got a complete steal. I don't see it that way, but it is a nice ego stroke. Since I just purchased her two months ago, I fail to see how you (who I think posted some rant on the Valiant owners list, if not you, then appologies) failed to get the same deal I did. The one I bought sat unpurchased for well over a year.

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My offers were based on what I thought was a reasonable price given the economic situation in the world and given that the boats had been sitting for quite a bit of time. The price also reflected the photos and the broker write up because that is what I had to go on. If the condition of the boat was not as described then the offer would have been changed but at least I would have known if the seller was willing to come down from what I thought was very very optimistic pricing that did not reflect the realities of the economy (IMHO).
But there's the rub, you wanted to steal a boat out from under someone, and wanted to pull that with a popular model. Hard to do. Not impossible, but requires a different approach rather than bottom feeding. Heck, we even made what I consider to be a *very* generous offer on a different model, and the owner came back and insisted he wouldn't take any less than asking price. And that on a boat that will never sell (and that's his plan apparently). It's business. Don't make it personal. Think how the owner of the boat feels, when you slink in with a totally low-ball offer. If you're expecting him not to take it personally, neither should you.

What you got was a cheap lesson in the values of boats in the current market. So you thought they should be much lower than they are. Apparently the market disagrees. As far as I can tell, the true value of a boat is the intersection of what someone is willing to pay and what someone is willing to take. You didn't even have to leave your armchair to learn it. Some of us drove (at least I never had to fly) a couple thousand miles (in total) to figure that out.

The ironic thing is that I had initially discounted the Valiant for similar reasons. I thought they were a bit overpriced, and given the style of boats the admiral had liked previously, they seemed a bit dated.

To bring this at least remotely back to the thread... I drove five plus hours down to look at a couple of boats. I got there early, because I didn't want to be late for my first appointment. So I had some time to kill, and randomly looked at the windows of the nearest brokerages. I saw a boat in the window, went in to ask about it. Turned out it had already sold (another one of those overpriced Valiants that don't sell), but the broker liked boats, and offered to show it anyway. I stepped in and saw the potential. If I hadn't travelled down to look at those other boats (all but one of which were criminal disappointments), I never would have found our boat.

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Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
Thinking back, my offers were a bit lower than what I would have offered if I had seen the boat before hand but this was simply a bit of an insurance blanket to allow for fixing of some items that invariably pop up. If you look at the boat first you can be a bit sharper when you calculate the offer.
And here's where I get lost. Having compared the descriptions to the actual boats over and over and over and over again, I just don't see how you can make any type of reasonable offer without actually looking at the boat. I got really bummed because boat after boat turned out to be crap, when the Internet listing looked so good. I eventually started calling the brokers beforehand and asking specifically about condition, etc. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM MISREPRESENTED THEIR LISTINGS except two, and one of those only owned up while we were walking down the ramp after I had driven over four hours to get there.

Another blemish to my logic record is the boat we ended up purchasing. The Internet listing looked pretty bad, and it definitely looked overpriced. Looked like a total project boat. It was almost in our backyard, relatively, so I wanted to take the wife down so she could see the type of boat. I was honest with my broker (who, again ironically had recommended a Valiant when we started this whole mess) about what I wanted to do, and he was willing to spend the time anyway. I had no intention of purchasing a project, because I didn't have to. We got down and set foot on the boat, and we all knew she was the boat for us. The Internet description bore almost no relation to the actual condition of the vessel, the boat was great. After all the Internet looking, driving all over the golden state looking at boats, hours spent researching, multiple offers on others, and we end up buying a boat less than 10 miles from my work which was exactly what our broker told us we should buy at the outset (some of them, shockingly, do know what they are doing).

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In any case, I did not buy long distance and saved myself a bucket full of money and time by going the route I did. I ended up buying a completely different boat (Catalina 36) with the understanding that this was a five year 'see how I like things' coastal cruiser instead of going straight off-shore at 3 times the price.

BTW, the first offer had a deposit, subsequent offers were written with a clause that the deposit would be forthcoming as soon as the offer was accepted. All offers were cash deals.
The local boat I bought had a deposit but the broker never cashed the cheque - it was a mutual trust kinda thing which I appreciated.
It sounds an awful lot like you didn't have your own broker. Why not? It costs you nothing. After an experience I had where a (now ex) friend who was a realtor represented both us and the buyer of our house, I will never never never never never never never never allow the same person to represent both sides of a transaction again. It's just asking to get screwed.

JRM

-- I try to see the positive in those "wasted" trips. I learned something on every one, usually lots. I saw other boats while I was there. I got lots of great ideas from those other boats. Plus, I can think of worse ways to spend a day than in the marina...
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:06   #78
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

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I will never never never never never never never never allow the same person to represent both sides of a transaction again. It's just asking to get screwed.
A lot of boats are listed on an exclusive basis with a particular broker, and by contract nobody but that broker can show the boat for a specific period of time.
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:59   #79
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

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A lot of boats are listed on an exclusive basis with a particular broker, and by contract nobody but that broker can show the boat for a specific period of time.
Our first boat was so cheap that it wasn't worth the selling broker's time to allow for a co-op agreement. I understand. I still used my own representation, even though I had to pay for it. It's business, so if they choose not to allow my representative to be involved, I am free to choose not to do business with them. There's nothing so valuable they have that I will feel compelled to buy it .

I may be wrong, but I don't think the OP is down in that price bracket. If so, why eat the cost of transportation and travel? I think in the range we're talking about, if the broker isn't willing to allow a co-op it's time to walk away. He's got a reason, which isn't conducive to a mutually beneficial transaction. The OP's money is green. If the seller doesn't want it, that is their choice. You can't make them take it (unless you're Oprah, and are willing to drop $50 million on a $10 million house).

It sounds like the OP is finding what all of us in the looking to recently bought market have found: It's frustrating as hell. As someone in the latter category, I can assure you that it is, in fact, entirely worth it.

JRM
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:40   #80
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

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Originally Posted by JRM View Post
Wow, bitter much? Or, there are others of us who are willing to be patient and wait for the right boat to come along, sometimes even a Valiant :-). BTW, while I think I paid a fair price for ours, the few people in the know that I've felt comfortable enough to tell what I spent keep telling me I got a complete steal. I don't see it that way, but it is a nice ego stroke. Since I just purchased her two months ago, I fail to see how you (who I think posted some rant on the Valiant owners list, if not you, then appologies) failed to get the same deal I did. The one I bought sat unpurchased for well over a year.
No, not bitter much. I was VERY frustrated at the time but in the overall picture I am actually happier the way it worked out. I searched for about 6 months which is fairly patient for me. If you just purchased two months ago and it was a more recent edition Valiant then you might have ended up with one that I made an offer on. I think the oldest was 1998. Why would you feel uncomfortable telling anybody what you paid ????
Yes, I posted what could be called a rant (but only barely) on the owners list and in retrospect I must admit that I was probably somewhat off on things - I saw plenty of Valiants that had sat for a fairly lengthy time but didn't sell. As it turned out, a number of these boats sold quickly after I got so frustrated. Maybe the prices they sold for were more reasonable than the asking price or maybe the buyers were willing to pay closer to the asking price than I was. Hey, maybe the sellers got a dose of reality after I made my offers

Quote:
But there's the rub, you wanted to steal a boat out from under someone, and wanted to pull that with a popular model. Hard to do. Not impossible, but requires a different approach rather than bottom feeding. Heck, we even made what I consider to be a *very* generous offer on a different model, and the owner came back and insisted he wouldn't take any less than asking price. And that on a boat that will never sell (and that's his plan apparently). It's business. Don't make it personal. Think how the owner of the boat feels, when you slink in with a totally low-ball offer. If you're expecting him not to take it personally, neither should you.
'Stealing' is a relative term - yes I was looking for a good deal (who isn't) but in my opinion I was offering a fair starting point for negotiation. No, I didn't take it personal.

Quote:
What you got was a cheap lesson in the values of boats in the current market. So you thought they should be much lower than they are. Apparently the market disagrees. As far as I can tell, the true value of a boat is the intersection of what someone is willing to pay and what someone is willing to take. You didn't even have to leave your armchair to learn it. Some of us drove (at least I never had to fly) a couple thousand miles (in total) to figure that out.
You are right in what the true value of a boat is. At the time I was looking nobody was prepared to pay the asking price hence they were over priced.

Quote:
If I hadn't travelled down to look at those other boats (all but one of which were criminal disappointments), I never would have found our boat.
Good for you. We all need to have a bit of luck on our side

Quote:
And here's where I get lost. Having compared the descriptions to the actual boats over and over and over and over again, I just don't see how you can make any type of reasonable offer without actually looking at the boat. I got really bummed because boat after boat turned out to be crap, when the Internet listing looked so good. I eventually started calling the brokers beforehand and asking specifically about condition, etc. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM MISREPRESENTED THEIR LISTINGS except two, and one of those only owned up while we were walking down the ramp after I had driven over four hours to get there.
I knew what I was able to afford and what I was willing to pay. It is fairly easy to come up with a figure. Obviously it could be a low offer or it could be a high offer until you see the boat.

Quote:
It sounds an awful lot like you didn't have your own broker. Why not?
I did have a broker for all my out of town offers.
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Old 09-09-2012, 21:33   #81
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

Not withstanding what all above have said regarding a sight unseen offer, if I wanted that boat, I would (and did to buy this boat) hire a buyer's agent to help me. All costs came out of seller's broker's share so even the my agent's air fare to inspect the boat with me was free!
If this appeals to you, PM me & I'll give you his name/ email. Great guy.
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Old 09-09-2012, 22:38   #82
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
Not withstanding what all above have said regarding a sight unseen offer, if I wanted that boat, I would (and did to buy this boat) hire a buyer's agent to help me. All costs came out of seller's broker's share so even the my agent's air fare to inspect the boat with me was free!
If this appeals to you, PM me & I'll give you his name/ email. Great guy.
maybe..... i always wondered if brokers were less willing to "make a deal happen" if they are sharing the commission and at a low price to boot. Keep the price up and it may fly....? I always try to deal direct with the listing broker. in one case he cut his commission to make it happen.. he still got more than sharing with another broker...
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Old 09-09-2012, 22:39   #83
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

Thanks capta for the offer, we have met a broker in town who we quite like and I'm sure he'd act as our agent if we asked but we've decided not to for the moment. We still love that boat and think our offer was a fair one. That said, we're prepared to let it go. We'd sure like something closer, cheaper, that we could inspect well before making an offer and there are a few candidates. We don't have to buy right now, winter is just around the corner anyway... Funny, how a little time and perspective can change things. If that broker had accepted or even counter-offered we'd likely have been across the country this weekend spending a lot (well for us anyway) money and we'd have been totally happy about it. C'est la vie.
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