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Old 03-09-2012, 10:29   #46
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

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Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl View Post
Oh give me a freakin' break. What part of "we're not total idiots" and "we're willing to walk away if it the boat wasn't as advertised" did you not understand?
Hang in there... You are doing it right and the Selling Broker is an idiot, He may have also violated Florida Law, by not excepting a legitimate offer.

In California, the Selling Broker is required by Law to present ANY offer made to the owner. If he fails to do that, he is in violation of the law and subject to fines and our suspension/loss of license.

My guess is he thinks he got away with it by doing this verbally instead of writing.

One way to see, is use a Buyers Broker, which will make a formal offer in writing... The Selling Broker can't turn it down without showing the owner. If you subsequently purchase the boat, the selling broker has to split the commission with your Buying Broker.

The bottom line is the Selling Broker at a minimum incompetant, and in my opinion should not be dealt with directly by anyone else but another professional that can monitor his paperwork and make sure he doesn't screw you over.
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:41   #47
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

When a boat comes fresh on ther market, everyone is optimisitc; the broker and the seller. Most sellers seem to think their boat is the best example out there. Reality sinks in 6 mos to a year later and the price starts coming down. But the sad truth is that you may want the boat, but it really wont be sold at a reasonable price until months have passed. I would walk away as many people's first offer will be 40% below asking price! If they wont even talk at 20%... walk away.
Be careful that your offer allows you to get out of it for any reason. When I left my mono in Folorida for Hurricane season one year, I looked at a Lagoon 42 Cat the day before I flew home. a few months later I started negotiating by phone on the cat. I sealed a deal subject to inspection etc etc. When I got to FLorida, the Broker had another Lagoon 42 for sale also that had better equiptment, better condition etc. In the end, I opted out of the first deal and bought the second boat! Using the negotiated price on the first boat as leverage to buy the better boat.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:37   #48
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

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I think TC is going about it in exactly the correct fashion- its HER money and she has a right to possibly spend that money in any way she feels fit. If this is the way she wants to negotiate a purchase, so be it. Just because it isn;t typically done this way doesn;t mean she is wrong. The broker stonewalling is within his rights as well, but such a hard line would cause me to walk. Too many great boats out there and too many good brokers to deal with a bad one.

I think sometimes sellers/brokers forget that it pays to be polite and flexible. TC's offer doesn't seem too crazy to me. I just don't get why the broker wouldn;t either say "My client has informed me not to bother him with offers below XYZ" if that is the case of "I will present your offer and get back with you". That's really not so hard.
These were my thoughts exactly! My guess is that the broker is comparing our offer to the initial pie-in-the-sky list price, not the new reduced realistic list price in thinking our offer is "too low" - the tactic being to get the current asking price or close to it by giving lip service to the old asking price and price reduction.

Thanks everyone for your support and loads of great advice. Seems we have a few options:

1. Get a buyers broker to make the offer for us.
2. Contact the owner directly with the offer.
3. Walk. And possibly offer again later if we don't find something better in the meantime.

We'll let you know how it all turns out!
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Old 03-09-2012, 13:57   #49
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TC,
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Old 03-09-2012, 20:01   #50
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

This has been a most interesting thread and many of you are both knowledgeable and experienced buyers and sellers.

This quote has stayed with me all day, "There's a negotiating concept called BATNA which stands for Best Alternative To a Negotiated Agreement." I had never heard of it and when dealing with small boats I haven't been too concerned about the balance sheet; win some, lose some.

However, when spending in the tens, or ,hundreds of thousands, the BATNA concept is dead on......what a useful idea and all the corroboration that followed reinforced it.
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Old 03-09-2012, 20:32   #51
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

BATNA....I guess I dont get it... you mean just pay full price?
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Old 04-09-2012, 06:44   #52
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

Cheechako,
In the context of buying a boat, my take-away from this conversation is "don't fall in love with a boat" and before entering into negotiations for a boat, be ready to negotiate on another boat that will be almost as good as the first. Have a back-up plan.

BATNA in boat negotiations could go like this (as one of a million examples): Our negotiated agreement with the broker is to pay 90% (not full price) of the asking price, and part of the negotiated agreement is that the contract is contingent upon an inspection/survey. If the survey fails, have a "best alternative" as a back up. In this case, the "best alternative" would be another boat you're ready to buy at say, 90% of asking price.

Example: BATNA in marriage-I negotiate with my wife that we'll sign up for a charter boat at the boat show, knowing that if no boats are available I can always buy a Gunboat. That would be the best alternative :-)
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:09   #53
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I too am totally frustrated with a broker. I'd like to know what amount of money, or deposit, is customary when MAKING an offer. I understand 10% of purchase price is customary when owner accepts an offer. This broker won't even take my offer without 10% of purchase price upfront. My offer was $5,000 less than owner's listed price, and I've been told 1% is usually required when making an offer and a total of 10% when deal is finalized, subject to passing survey and sea trial. Broker said I must pay to raise mast and cost to rig and run sails - I sails that expense should be owner's account if they want to sell the vessel. I thought buying our first boat, a bluewater yacht was supposed to be exciting and fun - but this has been anything but!!
I welcome your comments.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:41   #54
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

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I too am totally frustrated with a broker. I'd like to know what amount of money, or deposit, is customary when MAKING an offer. I understand 10% of purchase price is customary when owner accepts an offer. This broker won't even take my offer without 10% of purchase price upfront. My offer was $5,000 less than owner's listed price, and I've been told 1% is usually required when making an offer and a total of 10% when deal is finalized, subject to passing survey and sea trial. Broker said I must pay to raise mast and cost to rig and run sails - I sails that expense should be owner's account if they want to sell the vessel. I thought buying our first boat, a bluewater yacht was supposed to be exciting and fun - but this has been anything but!!
I welcome your comments.
I would send the offer in writing, along with your stipulations (e.g. subject to satisfactory sea trial and survey, that it includes all equipment in good condition as advertised, subject to ability to obtain financing or not, etc.). Put a time restriction on the offer (e.g. good for 7 days). Stand firm and tell the broker that your offer is a good one, and no money will be sent until it is accepted, and that you will send the deposit with signed contract. Tell the broker if no financing is required; as that fact will weigh heavily in his judgment of you as a "qualified" buyer (if you do need financing, send a copy of a pre-qualification letter from the finance company). If he still refuses to present your offer, tell him "The offer has a time limit... Call me if you change your mind, and if I'm still in the market we'll talk." Be pleasant and don't get emotional about it. There will be other boats.

As for stepping the mast etc. Usually used boats are sold "as is, where is" and any launching or other expense related to a sea trial is borne by buyer. IMHO the most critical parts of a seal trial are to evaluate the power-train, and to unfurl the sails to judge condition and running rigging and furling works properly, etc. If the mast is down all the better because it's easier to do a proper and even more thorough rigging inspection; and the sails can be opened up on the ground (or brought to a sail loft) for inspection without too much trouble. Also -- open the spinnaker etc. Too often people leave secondary sails in the bag only to find out later about damages that could have been a negotiating point if caught pre-sale.

BTW -- I'm not a broker... Just an experienced buyer.

Edit: Also, I implied above that that I don't think it necessary to step the mast for the sea trial. That was intentional. It's good to do but not essential, IMHO.
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:04   #55
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

I think you screwed up when you 'fell in love...."

Maybe the broker knows the above fact..
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:23   #56
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

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I think you screwed up when you 'fell in love...."

Maybe the broker knows the above fact..

THIS ^^^ Brokers frequent these forums. I know mine does..
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:39   #57
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

I have bought 6 digit boats with as little as $500 deposit. but something more substantial sends the message that you are serious. Realistically, the broker can call the seller and say "I've got a party who is ready to buy at $XXXXXX and will give me a deposit if you accept." But most brokers wont. They waste their own time alot filling out long winded forms etc when they could be treating potential buyers as they shold treat them. They deserve it.

re: Batna.... OK so I guess it does involve negotiation... confusing.

I recommend not falling in love also. It is a very good situation if you like two boats, then you are not afraid to walk from a deal. I actually bought the house I'm living in that way. I couldnt decide which house I liked best so I told the broker how I felt. Then I said, I'm going to make an offer on house A. If not accepted or countered very close to my offer , I will then make an offer on house B... and so on. It's the pits for a seller!
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Old 04-09-2012, 14:53   #58
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

Terminalcitygirl,

Moorage here in vancouver is insanely priced, forget the boat that is far away. Half the reason the broker is probably showing you the back of his hand is probably your distance from the boat - if you showed up with a bag of cash to look at it he would probably be more prepared to haggle in person. Here in canada it seems most boat brokers dont make their money off a percentage commision on the sale they make their money by figuring what the owner wants for it and spending years trying to sell it for double what the owner wantsband pocketimg tbe difference. Windward yacht sales in gibsons has some absolute trash listed for $15000 that i could get the same or better off craigslist for $3500.

The reason i mention insane vancouver moorage is because when the slip rentals come up for renewal you will see some great deals pop up because people either cant or dont want to come up with the cash for another year and would rather sell the boat at a deep loss than fork out another ten grand.

If you have been aggressively looking on craigslist and just arent finding what you like, check washington state. I have heard of great prices on great boats down there and its easier to take a look at it and sail it home. Be sure to ensure all the paperwork is in order before you get your heart set though to avoid hassles on importing. I know a couple that bought a truly gorgeous boat from anacortes for a steal just beacuse the interior stunk like mildew because it was neglected. A few days of cleaning and their boat is nicer than my house!
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Old 04-09-2012, 15:12   #59
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

I guess I don't understand the resistence to negotiate on this boat. It seems like you are probably within 10% of an agreement with the seller. You haven't seen the boat yet, so it is hard to figure an honest price. If this is the boat/model/configuration that you really want, another 10% is not much in the long run. If you do a walk through and it shows worts that should have been disclosed, you can walk or start renegotiating.
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Old 04-09-2012, 15:43   #60
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Re: Frustrated With Prospective Purchase!

Don't worry Mr. C, we are aggressively checking Craigslist locally and in Washington. We are looking for a fairly particular boat, we've narrowed it down to 3 models, maybe 4 but we don't rule out something else catching our eye. We are heading to Seattle and area this weekend to see a few possibles. And I know moorage here is insane! We are on a couple waitlists and of course would love to buy something with moorage but It has to be the right boat at the right price.

Paul, I totally hear you and we've even discussed offering again a bit more but factoring in the travel, taxes and boat transport, we have already exceeded our original budget and especially in this market we just can't justify offering much more than we have already. Plus the brokers response put us off a bit. If the broker had actually come back to negotiate, we may have found a few thousand more but that didn't happen.

We're going to let it go for now, and look at some other boats. We also have a line on one similar to the one we love that is a few years older but cheaper and has more stuff so we can move that way too. The way the broker has handled this boat from the get go just stinks though.
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