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Old 09-01-2017, 08:12   #1
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Forum Restructure

Please move this post to the appropriate place.

****

CF can be and in fact is a value resource of information including the experience of a lot of sailors with a whole lot of knots under their keels.

It's also a site where complete noobs and dreams show up with all manner of questions... understandably so... a captive audience of savy salts... why not?

Many salts with will pop up answers usually reading the noob the news to do their own homework... take classes.. read books...magazines, visit boat shows and boat yards and so on.

Years ago... more than 3 decades I got the bug to sail.... but there was not www and CF... Learning the art and science of sailing seems an insurmountable task. But I used what was available to me at the time....

I bought and read all the sailing magazines. I bought and read a whole slew of books about sailing, cruising, sailing physics and theory... I took classes in coastal navigation, meteorology celestial navigation and of course a hands on learn to sail course. I went to all the boat shows I could from Annapolis to Newport... I devoured publications like Practical Sailor. I spent a good 2 or 3 years in solid immersion to learn anything and everything I could about sailboats. I had one friend... who had a boat... my best friend and he suffered through thousands of my questions... But I was also able to help him with my cabinet maker and manuals skills to the point where he suggested we partner in a big sailboat.... which I could operate for sure. He assured me he would teach me and the two of us could handle the 48' boat.

However that deal did not happen... and so I just bit the bullet and in mid life put half my savings to buy a boat... the one I still own and cherish to this day. It was new. I had the boat surveyed. The surveyor told me... it's a good solid boat. It's not ready or equipped for offshore work. If that's what your goal is... you have a lot of work ahead of you. He was right of course... and it took me a fill 5 years... but I installed all the key systems I would have to take care of as they take care of me.

*****

Now to return to the purpose of this post. Please lets set up a forum for Noobs..... it can have "stickies" explaining all manner of things like finding a buying a boat... or handling, or whatever...

The forum needs to segregate the noob issues and discussions from those who have more sophisticated needs and understanding.

It's gets old to read.... We've always loved sailing and decided to sell it all and get a boat and complete the dream... we have $25K... any suggestions?

*****

Maybe...
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:16   #2
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Re: Forum Restructure

Not a bad idea. Would not require restructuring, just the addition of a new section. Not a heavy lift.
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:16   #3
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Re: Forum Restructure

No. You can just not click on the thread.
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Old 10-01-2017, 04:44   #4
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Re: Forum Restructure

Well, the same questions get asked over and over and over and over. A simple search prior to asking a question would be appreciated. Maybe the SEARCH button should be made larger and say "Search before asking"
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Old 10-01-2017, 04:48   #5
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Re: Forum Restructure

Teddy,
I don't think that it's the intent of the OP to segregate the noob's from the old salt, I think the intent is to make it easier to find the information that the noob's so often ask about, to speed up the process and maybe not re-hash a topic over and over. I don't think there's any malice to a noob here, just good intentions.
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Old 10-01-2017, 04:54   #6
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Re: Forum Restructure

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Originally Posted by teddythetwig View Post
Before my rant, I just want to say that I have the utmost respect for those CF members who use their experience to help the occasional noob out. You all are what makes this such a great forum.
So you're saying us noobs are doing it wrong, and that we should be like you gosh darnit! Did you walk uphill both ways in the snow to all those boatshows? So how do I graduate from the noob forum to the bigboy forum?

P.S. Should change the name of this thread to "Damn noobs! Get off my lawn"
Chill out with the attitude.

I am not proposing noobs be excluded or even isolated. Anyone is free to search and read the forums and make contributions.

I am proposing something like "stickies" which is the starting place for noobs and anyone who has a question... as opposed to posting what appears to be the same question over and over again.

Sailing is about learning... learning information and hands on experiences on the water or with a boat and its systems. A lot of learning is done thru reading and observing... school.... formal or informal.

Posts like... I always dreamed about sailing and now want to do it... what do I do? are pretty stupid in my opinion. Think it... sure... then go do your reading and research... there are blogs and books and probably youtubes... out there because there are youtubes about everything.

It's not nice to ignore or belittle people... for sure. On the other hand adults and ESPECIALLY sailors are a SELF SUFFICIENT crowd... self sufficiency is in the DNA of the sailor. Learn to be self sufficient and don't expect to be spoon fed. People love to help.... but PLEASE let's show some sense... Google is your friend...

My post was about simply moving the noob stuff to a noob forum with stickies.
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Old 10-01-2017, 08:28   #7
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Re: Forum Restructure

The one thing I would recommend is some kind of improvement in the search feature. It brings up so many posts, most of which seem unrelated to what I am looking for, that I rarely even try anymore. The angry rant about excluding newbies is way uncalled for. Almost everyone on this forum helps when they can, and if a restructuring helps the so-called newbs navigate this forum, that is all the better. There is enough of a difference between someone asking a technical question and someone asking if they can sail their Catalina 22 around the world, that maybe a new subforum would help people that are overwhelmed by the amount of information on CF. Just my thoughts! _____Grant.
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Old 10-01-2017, 08:49   #8
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Re: Forum Restructure

Quote:
Originally Posted by meridian28 View Post
Well, the same questions get asked over and over and over and over. A simple search prior to asking a question would be appreciated. Maybe the SEARCH button should be made larger and say "Search before asking"
I have no problem with the same questions being asked again and again. Otherwise just shut the forum down and use the old posts as reference work. After all, nearly every question that can be asked has been already, so why do we need a forum?


The search function is useless. You have to google what you want instead.


I'm not sure what a "newbie" forum would be? Newbies asking newbies for advice?


The oldtimers need to learn that their advice isn't necessarily the only valid advice. And stop trying to prove that they are right and someone else is wrong. Especially with pages of formulae, calculations etc. State your case and move on. The best way to use an online forum is to read others info and make your own decision what works best in your situation.
There are also people on this forum who seem to have taken it on themselves to do newbie training, "here's how you should use the forum" with page long point by point training exercises. Give it a rest.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:11   #9
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Re: Forum Restructure

Stickys on some common topics such as boat selection, boat buying (process), etc. would surely be nice. As to how to get it implimented, I'm not sure. Maybe gather "signatures" in something along the lines of a petition & present it to the mod's? As in the past when I've asked about creating such features, the response from the powers that be was lackluster at best.
Oh, & along with a petition, it probably would be wise to have folks chime in stating what topics that they feel stickys are warranted for. And to take such topics, & compile them into a list. That way it'll be fairly easy to state what members here feel is worth generating a sub-forum/stickys for.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:12   #10
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Re: Forum Restructure

I've been sailing for 47 years and owned various boats but I guess I'm still a newbie because I'm still learning. I don't mind the repeated question from beginners, although they are sometimes naÔve. I appreciate SteadyHand's replies to them which explain his helpful intent and advice about how to search for info in this forum. Perhaps such a standard reply to first time posters would be helpful to them.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:35   #11
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Re: Forum Restructure

I'm with Tayana I always feel new. If I didn't have something to learn everyday why would I log on to CF? Although the conversation is sparkling....

My suggestion would be to have a "Welcome to CF" or "How to Use CF" button right up near the top of the menu. Explain in some detail that most questions have been addressed and a goldmine of information is available with a search.

THEN a better search tool. Most of the the posts by new people - and old timers come to think of it - begin "I tried to search but didn't have much luck".
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:13   #12
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Re: Forum Restructure

Information!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The forum absolutely needs an upgrade in the sense of organizing the information and being able to search. If we had this there wouldn't be so many threads which start with an issue which has been discussed. If it's hard to find information that's here... the easy and lazy thing to do is just start your own thread.

One approach would be for the mods to move the new post into a historical thread on the same topic... But that would require the mods to have some sort of encyclopedic memory.

One would think that the organizing would be a benefit to new and old salts.

++++

Here's an example...

Heat

Get all the posts about heat on boats into one sub forum... then get all the say... diesel fired systems one in the HEAT sub forum... or have a thread for hydronic... or forced air... or propane or bulkhead mounted... or wood stoves...

Batteries is another area that could should be segregated to one forum

or alt charging sources and charging regulators.

Things like that.
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:25   #13
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Re: Forum Restructure

Point 1. What is being proposed would change the nature from a forum to an internet resource. There are thousands of web sites that explain things for newbies. So the risk is that people using the forum would become less engaged, and usage would drop.

Point 4. And how/why would the Ďstickiesí offer any better advice than the multitude of other web sites, books, magazines and sailing clubs out there?

Point C. For that matter what special advice would the stickies contain that makes their CF authors so incredibly wise?

I never realised that here on CF we have some people that know the ultimate source of knowledge and the answers to all things sailing, for any boat, anywhere in the world. I feel so honoured to be allowed to be included in this centre of scholarship and learnedness.

Point 5. How would such erudite members, those who know the answers of all things, and are thus responsible for the stickies, all be identified? Would someone step forward as the ultimate judge. Let me, let me. Pick me, please!

Point A. What about the inerrant American bias? Would that be removed? Finally we all would use the metric system, (big sigh of relief!).

Point 8. So remind me again what is the ultimate answer in respect to guns on cruising boats actually is?

Point 3. Actually I think itís terrific that many of the same questions keep being asked. But I have noticed the answers are very different from question to question and between posters.

Point 12. The search is crap for sure.

Point iii. So should I setup my boat with an electric motor and composting toilet to help stop anthropogenic global climate change?
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:37   #14
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Re: Forum Restructure

The "stickies" could be much like a wiki.... it could be articles which members can edit. Obviously people need to exercise discretion and professionalism.... but you can build informative content with this approach.

But yeah.... I see this site as a resource and one where experienced hands on people are providing content.
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:46   #15
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Re: Forum Restructure

Quote:
Originally Posted by redhead View Post
I'm with Tayana I always feel new. If I didn't have something to learn everyday why would I log on to CF? Although the conversation is sparkling....

My suggestion would be to have a "Welcome to CF" or "How to Use CF" button right up near the top of the menu. Explain in some detail that most questions have been addressed and a goldmine of information is available with a search.

THEN a better search tool. Most of the the posts by new people - and old timers come to think of it - begin "I tried to search but didn't have much luck".
The problem is not always the search function.
I estimate 90% of people look for 5 minutes and then ask. Its easier.

Using the C.F.search function is divided into 2 parts, via thread or post. Depending on the criteria requested, the search will look for a single word better than words combined.

For example "Catalac". Better to search in posts than threads. To refine it for example "12 metre catalac" will not return accurate results for the following reason: metre is probably not the word used in American. "Meter" is. There are only so many synonyms that can be linked in American and proper English..

However it will result in metre and catalac but if 12 is not found, the boat size with the other 2 search words, usually the 8 or 9 will display.

The software used by C.F. is an off the shelf program with heavy personalisation by C.F. Limits are what they are. Google is a better option as their engine is designed solely for search.

It would take too long to extract the years of information and place them elsewhere. Work continues on refining the boards and at some stage a clever piece of coding that enables a better search function AND that does not break the program somewhere else will be found.

I have found it easier to do single word search and then scroll down the results and look where its possible the information I want might be. Sometimes the phrases we use in the search have no relationship to what was originally posted. The C.F. is not a freeform database so luck is involved.

Use Google: ask the question and preface or end with: "on Cruisers forum".

I dont understand why a person would open a thread that they have no interest in. There are different levels of experience in sailing and I always though the interchange between experience and non was beneficial. For example if I see a thread title: Looking for Westerbeke head gasket....the chances of me opening it are a percentage between 0 and 1.

For those: "Wanting 50 ft Cat to sail around the world for under $40K, no sailing experience", they dont want to search, they want the answer they want.

As far as stickies...... not so simple as one would think. What constitutes a good piece of information? Singularly yes, but multiple responses not so easy... This is a chat board and some of the information comes with fruity language which has been missed along with argumentative discussion. Most come with rebuttals on the information presented.

WE are all volunteers behind the scenes. We encourage boating and chat interchanges. I dont have time to start collating.

If a newbie asks a question... strangely enough people respond and help willingly.... those who dont want to, then move along, preferably without a derogatory comment... We here are truly amazed at how helpful people are regarding a subject they have a passion for. Sometimes the responses are better than what is written somewhere.

The admin continually are looking at ways to make things better for all of us. They listen to everything that is suggested and work within the confines of the real structures, cost and time. I have made 2 suggestions and both would break the code somewhere... what we have is what we have.

Hope this helps.

As much as it pains me to say.... Google is your friend when searching specifically.
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