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Old 12-04-2014, 10:47   #1366
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

First and foremost, I want the Kaufman family to know that I am very happy that the baby is doing better and that Iím sorry for the loss of your home. While I donít personally agree with some of your choices, they were choices that only you could make and I certainly donít hold any of them against you.

Now to the other members here. This is my first and will be my only post here, so please try to humor me just this once. I came here mainly out of curiosity, but also because I saw some extremely vicious comments elsewhere posted by people who claimed to be a part of this forum and that gave a very bad impression of this forum as a whole. I hoped that I would discover that my impression was wrong, but unfortunately I did not. I realize that there are a lot of people out there who know nothing about this lifestyle and who made some hurtful comments about this entire situation.

Let me digress for a minuteÖPersonally, all I know about boating is that my brother and his best friend were both killed on the Potomac River. They and another friend were fishing and were moving very slowly when they heard something banging on the boat. The other friend leaned over to see what it was and was thrown into the water. When he didnít immediately surface (because he had blacked out when he hit the water), both my brother and his best friend instinctively jumped in to help him. Unfortunately (and yes, very stupidly), my brotherís best friend (who was the owner and driver of the boat) was not using a kill switch, so the boat started spinning. Ironically, the friend who was thrown managed to get away from the boat and to a buoy and survived, by my brother and his best friend were apparently either hit by the boat or pull under and hit by propeller, or both, and their bodies were not found until the next evening. This may be the reason for my own opinions of the water and boating and, granted, it really does not compare to a situation like this, but my point is that, justified or not, everyone has honest and heartfelt reasons for their opinions, and they certainly have that right.

So again, I know that some very hurtful comments were directed at this family. I posted my own opinions and theories as well, although I did try to be respectful. I wonít go into my opinions here simply because they are just my opinions, but I will say that taking their babies on such an adventure was their own choice and that I have no problem at all with their calling for help, why they called for help, or who paid for it. I also totally understand their friends and people such as yourselves standing up to support them. But my problem is the way that it was done. While some of the comments by ďoutsidersĒ were very mean and hurtful, most of the comments by those who claimed to be part of this community were downright vicious. There was ridiculous name-calling (ranging from ďturdnibblersĒ, which was the very mildest that I saw, to things that I refuse to even type, let alone say out loud), political ranting that had nothing to do with anything, and actual physical threats, just to name a few. Like I said, I came here hoping to find that my impression of the members was wrong but, after spending days reading this and only this thread, I unfortunately found that it wasnít. In fact, I could probably match many of those comments with the forum members who posted them based solely on some of the comments they have posted in this thread.

That said, my reason for posting here is just to say that, if you really want people to learn about, understand and respect the lifestyle that you have chosen, it might be a good idea not to attack and/or antagonize those who donít. Had I seen comments inviting those who donít understand to come here and learn rather than the comments I did see, I may have been able to accept your views and change my own opinions, but after the childish and brutal way that some of you acted both inside this thread and out, what I see is that youíve done more harm than good to your own community.
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Old 12-04-2014, 10:57   #1367
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

A very typical response from this community unfortunately. It is a tight knit community and many of the people have anger problems which show up as they post online. They, as a community, have ganged up on people online more times than I can count.

I recall reading about how proud the "turdnibbler" person was for calling other people that particular name. They received accolades from the other members of the community, cheering them on.

As I have said before, sailors/cruisers will be their own downfall. We need to police our own a lot better in public.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko61 View Post
First and foremost, I want the Kaufman family to know that I am very happy that the baby is doing better and that Iím sorry for the loss of your home. While I donít personally agree with some of your choices, they were choices that only you could make and I certainly donít hold any of them against you.

Now to the other members here. This is my first and will be my only post here, so please try to humor me just this once. I came here mainly out of curiosity, but also because I saw some extremely vicious comments elsewhere posted by people who claimed to be a part of this forum and that gave a very bad impression of this forum as a whole. I hoped that I would discover that my impression was wrong, but unfortunately I did not. I realize that there are a lot of people out there who know nothing about this lifestyle and who made some hurtful comments about this entire situation.

Let me digress for a minuteÖPersonally, all I know about boating is that my brother and his best friend were both killed on the Potomac River. They and another friend were fishing and were moving very slowly when they heard something banging on the boat. The other friend leaned over to see what it was and was thrown into the water. When he didnít immediately surface (because he had blacked out when he hit the water), both my brother and his best friend instinctively jumped in to help him. Unfortunately (and yes, very stupidly), my brotherís best friend (who was the owner and driver of the boat) was not using a kill switch, so the boat started spinning. Ironically, the friend who was thrown managed to get away from the boat and to a buoy and survived, by my brother and his best friend were apparently either hit by the boat or pull under and hit by propeller, or both, and their bodies were not found until the next evening. This may be the reason for my own opinions of the water and boating and, granted, it really does not compare to a situation like this, but my point is that, justified or not, everyone has honest and heartfelt reasons for their opinions, and they certainly have that right.

So again, I know that some very hurtful comments were directed at this family. I posted my own opinions and theories as well, although I did try to be respectful. I wonít go into my opinions here simply because they are just my opinions, but I will say that taking their babies on such an adventure was their own choice and that I have no problem at all with their calling for help, why they called for help, or who paid for it. I also totally understand their friends and people such as yourselves standing up to support them. But my problem is the way that it was done. While some of the comments by ďoutsidersĒ were very mean and hurtful, most of the comments by those who claimed to be part of this community were downright vicious. There was ridiculous name-calling (ranging from ďturdnibblersĒ, which was the very mildest that I saw, to things that I refuse to even type, let alone say out loud), political ranting that had nothing to do with anything, and actual physical threats, just to name a few. Like I said, I came here hoping to find that my impression of the members was wrong but, after spending days reading this and only this thread, I unfortunately found that it wasnít. In fact, I could probably match many of those comments with the forum members who posted them based solely on some of the comments they have posted in this thread.

That said, my reason for posting here is just to say that, if you really want people to learn about, understand and respect the lifestyle that you have chosen, it might be a good idea not to attack and/or antagonize those who donít. Had I seen comments inviting those who donít understand to come here and learn rather than the comments I did see, I may have been able to accept your views and change my own opinions, but after the childish and brutal way that some of you acted both inside this thread and out, what I see is that youíve done more harm than good to your own community.
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Old 12-04-2014, 10:58   #1368
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

koko61,

I'm probably posting to thin air as you mentioned in the above post this was your 1st and only post here. The majority here have been supportive in their posts. Maybe your confusion comes from other sources where I have witnessed posters professing to be sailors have been quite negative.
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:03   #1369
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Sorry...I'm not getting involved with your usual illogical banter. We did that once before with an epoxy issue... remember?... "End transmission".
You can use your fuzzy logic all you want. You do not have all the facts. Until you do, you're only speculating.
True, I don't have all the facts, just the ones the Kaufman's stated and what any medical source will tell you. The child had salmonella poisoning, salmonella is persistent on surfaces like countertops, salmonella has a moderate occurrence of relapse, there are antibiotics you can administer to treat a relapse, and the Kaufman's left on the longest shore to shore cruising destination available after a Mexican doctor told them their child was stable.

The child had a relapse, they couldn't treat the relapse because they didn't apparently have the antibiotics, they called for help and quite appropriately so, then sank their vessel after the child got access to life saving medical attention.

Are any of these facts in dispute, or is it noticing them that irritates you?

I am uninterested in breaking Eric's chops over the decisions he made, and I would think he is probably being harsher to himself than anyone on this thread is. But to pretend that the topic shouldn't be discussed after being plastered over the news cycle for a few days so that others can learn from it is a bizarre attitude, IMO.

And no, I don't remember our conversation about epoxy, but I gather it looms large as an important event worth remembering for you.
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:15   #1370
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
And they might have endless funds to build a tank, like your stinkpot, and cruise no further than an Island in Washington State, taking pictures of elderly woman with dogs, and sit around on a thread all day pontificating endless second guesses as if all risks can be mitigated and put into a paper bag for future reference.

You're a walking fantasy, man.

Most experienced cruisers I know have recognized there are limits to preparation and accept those risks, and move on. When they go into the field, they go light.
Ah, you're right, I should be more diligent in maintaining the boat's site. With around 15,000 miles under her since we re-launched, it is pretty pathetic to only have bothered to post a day trip to Stewart Island. The pictures of our cruising in the south Pacific under sail are, alas, just film and I can't be bothered converting them.

And the elderly lady is my wife, although I hope you won't mind if I don't read your post to her, since it is a gratuitous insult to someone you don't know.

And yes, Delfin is a tank, isn't she? Capable of going most anywhere in fact, as she has been doing for 45 years.

Finally, I appreciate your post, as it illustrates so well what is in the heart of many of the CF avid posters, although by no means all. Helps put some opinions into perspective, so to speak.

p.s. do let us know when you can afford a boat. I am personally rooting for you.
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:19   #1371
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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koko61,

I'm probably posting to thin air as you mentioned in the above post this was your 1st and only post here. The majority here have been supportive in their posts. Maybe your confusion comes from other sources where I have witnessed posters professing to be sailors have been quite negative.
Ha...so my for my only post! lol

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my long-winded ramblings (sorry, but that's an unfortunate character trait for me ), but I don't think you fully understand what I was trying to say. I totally agree that the majority here have been supportive of the Kaufman family and their rescue and I think that's great, but in the same comments many have also been very cruel and hateful toward anyone who disagrees with any part of this situation. And yes, some of those people may not be associated with this forum at all, but there is at least one person I recall who was particularly cruel who uses his real name on Facebook and a version of it here, so there's no mistaking that one, and many others can be matched to forum members simply by their style of writing and their choice of words. But aside from that, even if I hadn't read all those "outside" comments, just the bickering and fighting within this thread speaks volumes about the character of some of these people. Of course there are some great people here, but there are also quite a few who are not very good representatives of this forum, regardless of their experience, expertise or anything else. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it.
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:26   #1372
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Ha...so my for my only post! lol

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my long-winded ramblings (sorry, but that's an unfortunate character trait for me ), but I don't think you fully understand what I was trying to say. I totally agree that the majority here have been supportive of the Kaufman family and their rescue and I think that's great, but in the same comments many have also been very cruel and hateful toward anyone who disagrees with any part of this situation. And yes, some of those people may not be associated with this forum at all, but there is at least one person I recall who was particularly cruel who uses his real name on Facebook and a version of it here, so there's no mistaking that one, and many others can be matched to forum members simply by their style of writing and their choice of words. But aside from that, even if I hadn't read all those "outside" comments, just the bickering and fighting within this thread speaks volumes about the character of some of these people. Of course there are some great people here, but there are also quite a few who are not very good representatives of this forum, regardless of their experience, expertise or anything else. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it.
No, he did not understand your post. And while it may not be evident from the way some of our brethren who have anger issues behave on this thread, I am sure you would find a great deal of agreement with your thoughts from others who don't post so much.

Welcome aboard, and when and if you are called a troll because you have a slightly different opinion than some and only a few posts, or God forbid we find out you make your living writing, learn how to use the Ignore button and keep contributing.
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:50   #1373
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

Koko61, while I disagree with your view, I agree with your ability to state your opinion regardless. As far as appeasing the non cruising folks, not my job. I don't care what landlubbers think of cruising, nor does their opinion of me affect me one way or another. If they want to know more about the world of cruising then the onus is on them to learn. This world is full of wannabes of all stripes and quite frankly I don't have the time. If you want to know something then ask, I am not going to take anyone by the hand and tell them "here this is what you should understand about cruising" . I will always be ready to help the ones who want to learn, but they have to make the effort.
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:52   #1374
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post

The child had a relapse, they couldn't treat the relapse because they didn't apparently have the antibiotics, they called for help and quite appropriately so, then sank their vessel after the child got access to life saving medical attention.

Are any of these facts in dispute, or is it noticing them that irritates you?
Yes:

1) you don't know if it was a relapse or something new.

2) They had antibiotics. They administered. They didn't work. You don't know if it was the same antibiotics they had treated her with before and she was DRd.

3) Which ones do you think they should have carried in this case, since you think they should have had a pharmacy?:

Fluoroquinolones which are deadly: Cipro, Levaquin, Avelox, ciprofloxacin, levofloxacin, moxifloxacin, etc?

Third-generation cephalosporins:Cedax, cefdinir, cefditoren, cefixime, Cefizox, cefotaxime, cefpodoxime, ceftazidime, ceftibuten, ceftizoxime, ceftriaxone, Claforan, Fortaz, Omnicef, Rocephin, Spectracef, Suprax, Tazicef, Tazidime, Vantin?

Ampicillin: Omnipen, Polycillin, Principen?
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Old 12-04-2014, 11:55   #1375
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
With around 15,000 miles under her since we re-launched, it is pretty pathetic to only have bothered to post a day trip to Stewart Island.
After reading your posts, I have to admit I didn't consider that those 15k miles were back and forth to the sanitation pumping station.


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p.s. do let us know when you can afford a boat. I am personally rooting for you.
Don't worry. Doing quite fine at it. I'm sure you'll know it when I do on here.
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Old 12-04-2014, 12:23   #1376
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

Monkey, from what I've been able to turn up, the antibiotics used to treat pediatric salmonella and other infections can actually CAUSE rashes that are unrelated to any disease. Rather, the rather is a reaction to the antibiotic and if that's an allergy, that can still be a deadly problem. Apparently even pediatricians are often confused by "What is this rash?" and since babies can go into crisis very quickly...a medic would need one dangerously huge ego to say anything except "let's get this kid to a hospital". That's just the way it is.

Without faulting anyone, it is worth pointing out that when any member of the crew speaks no known language and is unable to communicate about any pains they may be in, that's a problem. Whether you have an infant, a toddler, the ship's dog or a newly rescued UFO survivor on board...if they're in obvious distress and they can't explain what the problem is, that in itself is a problem.

Maybe, waiting and not taking a child to sea before they are capable of speaking, wouldn't be a totally mad compromise. But then again, my niece went away for a weekend (then in her early teens) and came home with totally unexpected appendicitis, emergency appendectomy the next day. Maybe all offshore sailors should have a preventive appendectomy too? Not really, just to remind us all of that quaint naval saying, "[censored] happens".

On land or at sea. Despite, as the Mad Hatter said, "It was the very best of butter."
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Old 12-04-2014, 12:27   #1377
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Monkey, from what I've been able to turn up, the antibiotics used to treat pediatric salmonella and other infections can actually CAUSE rashes that are unrelated to any disease.
Yes, and I see now nurse OceanGirl above also alluded to this. Just remember they were cleared and had time pass before setting off. How many months or weeks do you wait?
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Old 12-04-2014, 12:29   #1378
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Ha...so my for my only post! lol

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my long-winded ramblings (sorry, but that's an unfortunate character trait for me ), but I don't think you fully understand what I was trying to say. I totally agree that the majority here have been supportive of the Kaufman family and their rescue and I think that's great, but in the same comments many have also been very cruel and hateful toward anyone who disagrees with any part of this situation. And yes, some of those people may not be associated with this forum at all, but there is at least one person I recall who was particularly cruel who uses his real name on Facebook and a version of it here, so there's no mistaking that one, and many others can be matched to forum members simply by their style of writing and their choice of words. But aside from that, even if I hadn't read all those "outside" comments, just the bickering and fighting within this thread speaks volumes about the character of some of these people. Of course there are some great people here, but there are also quite a few who are not very good representatives of this forum, regardless of their experience, expertise or anything else. Sorry, but that's just the way I see it.
You are absolutely correct.

Unfortunately, it's human nature and it's pretty common on websites where people are passionate about their hobbies or lifestyles.
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Old 12-04-2014, 13:18   #1379
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

Hello, this is my 1st post as a new member. The Rebel Heart incident has led me here. Although I have been on various fresh- and salt-water vessels throughout my life, I am not a cruiser or sailor. I've never met or spoken to the Kaufmans, online or offline. I don't work in the media or entertainment industry.

I have, however, spent hours upon hours reading the Kaufmans' blogs, as well as many of their posts on the forum and their Facebook page. I have also viewed the Air National Guard press conference regarding the Rebel Heart crew rescue a few times. Finally, I have read various threads on various forums concerning their recent trip.


First, let me just say that I'm happy the family is safe and back on land. I think it's reasonable to say that most if not all of us go through things in life which put us in harm's way, whether we spend our time on land or on water. Life is simply full of risks -- and also full of rewards. Many of these events, however, are not typically broadcast in such a public fashion as the Kaufmans' story.


I recognize and understand that both Eric and Charlotte are members here, and that apparently many here are supporters and possibly have even met them offline.

I also, however, think it's important and relevant to understand and discuss some facts leading up to this incident. It is not necessarily only a sailor/cruiser story; this also becomes a Kaufman family story. Regardless of your personal relationship with them, and regardless of your own sailing/cruising experience, I think it's vital to consider the facts which have been thoroughly documented mainly by the Kaufmans themselves -- especially those from the past few months.

I don't see many people here discussing many of these, most of which can be found at their blogs. This is the reason why I decided to register and post here. I'm interested in hearing responses to any or all of the following findings.


Without comment, here is just a list of what I have found at their blogs:

- The longest trip prior to their most recent, was just 4 nights long, taken only by Eric. This was a coastal trip. The entire family never spent this much time sailing at once. They have never been outside of coastal waters. None of them have been crew or passengers for another's blue-water trip.

- Much of their time has been spent ashore, as well as being docked.

- Prior to the trip, Charlotte and their two girls had physical health issues, which can easily reoccur if not fully treated and healed, and can easily be re-exposed if certain sanitation requirements are not fulfilled, causing a vicious cycle of reinfection.

- Their voyage was physically much rougher than they expected, considering they had never experienced blue-water sailing, nor had they spent much time away from stepping foot on land. They were constantly jostled about, couldn't sleep well, and experienced bouts of seasickness. Couple this with Charlotte's and the girls' recent illnesses, and you have a potential recipe for disaster.

- Charlotte's mental health was not the greatest, per her own admissions. She was very unhappy oftentimes during their trip, even asking Eric at one point early on what he thought about the prospect of she and the girls going back ashore and letting Eric do the voyage himself. Approximately two months prior to their departure, Charlotte also posted about feeling suicidal; she did not state if she received any professional psychological assistance for this. And approximately three months prior to their departure, she publicly accused her father of sexually and mentally abusing her and her sister, which apparently split their large family in two, causing emotional distress for many, including for Charlotte, herself.

- During the California Air National Guard press conference video, starting at approximately 2:05, one of the rescuers stated that the Kaufmans were in "decent condition" and that Lyra was "a little bit sick" when the rescuers first boarded Rebel Heart. It wasn't unil later in the conference that another rescuer made statements contradicting that. It was also not disclosed if Lyra was suffering from salmonella, long-term seasickness, or both -- all of which can lead to similar symptoms.

- Finally, this was a 3,000-mile trip which was expected to take 3-4 weeks. They were two weeks into the trip, and had only gone 900 miles.


Given the above, one can argue that this was simply a case of the captain and crew not being experienced enough, nor mentally or physically prepared enough, for such a voyage attempt. There is no shame in admitting that. When the Kaufmans do speak, I think we'd all like and expect them to be fully open and honest. Doing so will not only garner them further respect, but also potentially help other families facing similar decisions.


I'm fully aware that I might attract some negativity from others here by posting this. This is not an attack on the Kaufmans or their decisions, nor is this a personal attack against any of you reading this or your lifestyle choices. I would expect the same respect. However, I think I've done a pretty good job in listing some facts, many of which aren't discussed much here, and again, can be found throughout Rebel Heart's blogs and in the National Guard press conference video. I strongly suggest that many of you, if you haven't already, to spend at least several hours reading through that publicly-documented first-hand information prior to responding to my post, especially the blogs from the past 3 months or so, at a minimum.

Thank you. And again, welcome back, Rebel Heart crew. Glad to have you aboard the mainland. May your experiences be lessons for all of us. And good luck in your future endeavors.
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Old 12-04-2014, 13:36   #1380
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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It's been an interesting read!

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Eric, you are welcome to come to the Puget sound and go sailing with us anytime. Its a beautiful day today! Just ignore the naysayers and dream stealers and sail on!

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