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Old 11-04-2014, 14:37   #1231
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
if his join date was not yesterday,i would give him more rope,but as far as i can see he is on a fishing mission,probably from the media,looking for a story.

i suggest he read this thread Tolerance

before posting further on this thread,and maybe his boat name for credibility,it is a very small world out there,we can easily check his bonafides,if he has been cruising as long as he professes to have.

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Well perhaps, but I suppose there must have been a time when you had 2 posts. His post seemed fairly reasonable to me and like him, I do think that it is always helpful to learn from other people's experiences, both good and bad. Some things went bad for Rebel Heart and some things clearly went great since we have a more or less happy ending, people-wise, that everyone should be grateful for and can learn from.

For example, I'd like to learn the details on how that other family on their way to the Kiribati group managed to stay alive for 91 days with their kid through storms on a boat that was falling apart. Hope I would never put my family into a situation where I have to put the information to use, but it would be nice to know how they did it.
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Old 11-04-2014, 15:14   #1232
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Originally Posted by Charlie Weber View Post
Sure, I know that Atoll, this is true all over the inter-webz, however not all non-hug comments are trolls. Mine are certainly not. Look, anyone who's hung out around cruising ports in Mexico and California has met families like the Kaufmans, eager, enthusiastic but inexperienced single-handers too, and many get slapped and come limping home, the Kaufman's just got a lot of attention because of the spectacular nature of their flameout, but they're not unique.

And it's not speculation or hearsay to read and comment upon their respective blog entries. Eric wrote this at the beginning of his last blog post while at sea:

"I remember seeing a picture of Lynn Pardey on the coach roof of her small sailboat, playing guitar up by the mast with the wind gently blowing them towards whatever tropical destination they were bound for. I'm sure many have that experience. For us, we've been in force 5 conditions for the last three days straight now."

Umm, no, many of us have not had that Pardey showbiz moment on passages in the open ocean. On the contrary, the foredeck is usually awash. Potential cruising parents with small children would find that out if they crewed somewhere first, before setting off with babies aboard. And they would find out that force five is a nice offshore day, not anything unusual at all. It's sad that people spend years preparing their boats while neglecting perhaps the most important prep of all, spending a few weeks crewing and getting some offshore experience.

For wannabes reading this heavily spidered, search friendly thread, it's an important point Atoll, and it does them no good to sweep it under the rug.

Thanks, Atoll, for your willingness to try to mount a salvage expedition for the RH, it's tragic that it didn't work out.

Cheers,
Charlie
charlie i,m sure you are a nice guy,and don't mean to be unfriendly,BUT untill eric is here to comment ON THIS THREAD,i respecfully ask you to look at the many other current threads discussing your chosen topic of choice,or start a new thread,rather than speculate here.

here is a good one to get you started,discussing the exact topic/post mortem of events speculatively.

Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...12#post1515812

cheers atoll
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Old 11-04-2014, 15:19   #1233
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

I will say and I would hope most would agree, that overall the comments on this thread have a lot more supportive because we "knew" the people involved. Thinking about other threads kind of similar where the players weren't cf members , they got basically destroyed here.

Just saying it not defending it!
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Old 11-04-2014, 15:22   #1234
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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I will say and I would hope most would agree, that overall the comments on this thread have a lot more supportive because we "knew" the people involved. Thinking about other threads kind of similar where the players weren't cf members , they got basically destroyed here.

Just saying it not defending it!

True, look at the pasting the guys on Wolfhound got.

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Old 11-04-2014, 15:33   #1235
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
....as far as i can see he is on a fishing mission,probably from the media,looking for a story.

...maybe his boat name for credibility,it is a very small world out there,we can easily check his bonafides,if he has been cruising as long as he professes to have...
1) Very perceptive, I am a writer by profession, however my participation here is strictly recreational in nature. Not fishing at all, sometime prior to my first post a I read a call for something worthwhile to be posted to this discussion, so I finally registered and brought a point of view with me.

2) I don't have anything more to prove than anyone else on the internet, however my sailing career began in the 70s and ran through the early 90s. No, I don't consider myself a cruiser, but I learned a lot about offshore voyaging as a long distance sailor and ocean racer, often being sought out as crew while living aboard a succession of my own boats. As an aside, my then-wife and I concluded our sailing life, and a decade of living aboard, not long after our 8 month-old son projectile hurled all over her and down her shirt on an otherwise fine daysail off Malibu. We had the 41 for a couple more years after that, but I don't think she ever set foot onboard again. Sailing with a baby just wasn't for her.

Today I'm 58 years-old and living a different kind of dream in a ski town, skiing in the backcountry and at the hill most days in the winter and hiking in the summer. Still do an occasional charter with my current wife and 13 year-old daughter, along with friends, and I'm amazed how much easier sailing has become, electric winches, roller furling everything and electronics we only dreamed of back in the day, making it possible for me to take 8 or nine folks who've never sailed out for a week's cruise on a 50 footer. Used to take at least 3 experienced crew on a boat that size.

Anyway, I'd like to thank all for the welcome and the PMs, it's quite an impressive community you have here.

Cheers,
Charlie
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Old 11-04-2014, 15:50   #1236
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Originally Posted by Charlie Weber View Post
1) Very perceptive, I am a writer by profession, however my participation here is strictly recreational in nature. Not fishing at all, sometime prior to my first post a I read a call for something worthwhile to be posted to this discussion, so I finally registered and brought a point of view with me.

2) I don't have anything more to prove than anyone else on the internet, however my sailing career began in the 70s and ran through the early 90s. No, I don't consider myself a cruiser, but I learned a lot about offshore voyaging as a long distance sailor and ocean racer, often being sought out as crew while living aboard a succession of my own boats. As an aside, my then-wife and I concluded our sailing life, and a decade of living aboard, not long after our 8 month-old son projectile hurled all over her and down her shirt on an otherwise fine daysail off Malibu. We had the 41 for a couple more years after that, but I don't think she ever set foot onboard again. Sailing with a baby just wasn't for her.

Today I'm 58 years-old and living a different kind of dream in a ski town, skiing in the backcountry and at the hill most days in the winter and hiking in the summer. Still do an occasional charter with my current wife and 13 year-old daughter, along with friends, and I'm amazed how much easier sailing has become, electric winches, roller furling everything and electronics we only dreamed of back in the day, making it possible for me to take 8 or nine folks who've never sailed out for a week's cruise on a 50 footer. Used to take at least 3 experienced crew on a boat that size.

Anyway, I'd like to thank all for the welcome and the PMs, it's quite an impressive community you have here.

Cheers,
Charlie
welcome aboard charlie,and i'm sure in the fullness of time the issue of cruising with children will get discussed to death!

in fact if you look on the link i provided,some good points have all ready been raised,in an objective way.......Rebel Heart's contribution to the cruising community - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

the reason i have asked you to move over there, is out of respect for REBEL HEART,who are longtime members here,and this thread with over 1000 posts is very subjective and would quickly run amock, if the vitriol that permeates the media should find it's way onto this thread.
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Old 11-04-2014, 16:00   #1237
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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atoll, I don't think Charlie was being unkind or "trollish" at all. In fact, I think he made some really good points. I really had no intention to jump into this fray, however, I think I needed to say that.

Hind-sight is always wiser, but I think if I had been in Erik and Charlotte's shoes, I would have done some Caribbean cruising before heading out across the big ole Pacific. It would have been a great place to practice.

This entire incident just broke my heart and I am so sorry for Erik and his family. Hopefully, good will come from it though.
CAribbean cruising is not a viable option for folks who live in San Diego. Baja and the Sea of Cortez is a viable option. Eric et al had done just what you suggest: over a year of lower risk cruising before setting out on a Pacific crossing... just what we and many others did before them.

I think that your criticism is unjustified.

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Old 11-04-2014, 16:06   #1238
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

If the news from the press conference linked above is true that there was really nothing wrong with the boat..... boy .... I'm more confused than ever. I hope we hear at some point what the deal was if it's not too personal, but we may not I suppose. Hope they are doing well.
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Old 11-04-2014, 16:15   #1239
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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If the news from the press conference linked above is true that there was really nothing wrong with the boat..... boy .... I'm more confused than ever. I hope we hear at some point what the deal was if it's not too personal, but we may not I suppose. Hope they are doing well.

What does it matter about the boat. I would not expect a father to abandon his family in favour of a plastic boat.

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Old 11-04-2014, 16:20   #1240
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Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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CAribbean cruising is not a viable option for folks who live in San Diego. Baja and the Sea of Cortez is a viable option. Eric et al had done just what you suggest: over a year of lower risk cruising before setting out on a Pacific crossing... just what we and many others did before them.



I think that your criticism is unjustified.



Jim

A truck covers a lot of distance easily IMHO , and it's clear from the blogs, that certainly Charlotte was unprepared. But I agree this isn't the thread for this

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Old 11-04-2014, 16:26   #1241
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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What does it matter about the boat. I would not expect a father to abandon his family in favour of a plastic boat.

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Well, that's the detail we need isnt it? The baby was being cared for by 4 experts on board, the family went into the hands of the US Armed Services and was safe.
Is sailing the boat back "abandoning the family"? If so , better not join others on a 1 week charter without your family! You might get a call from Child Protective Services I guess.... if people like you have their way.
My understanding is the child was fine at time of rescue..?
LET ME BE CLEAR, I'm not knocking any decision they made, only they can make it. I did express my confusion over the latest news though.... it all seemed to make sense with a broken rudder and no engine....
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Old 11-04-2014, 16:42   #1242
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Well, that's the detail we need isnt it? The baby was being cared for by 4 experts on board, the family went into the hands of the US Armed Services and was safe.
Is sailing the boat back "abandoning the family"? If so , better not join others on a 1 week charter without your family! You might get a call from Child Protective Services I guess.... if people like you have their way.
My understanding is the child was fine at time of rescue..?
I agree. And would like to point out that even though the media was trying to tear Eric apart the rescue heroes were on his side. Once my family was safe I can't imagine not trying to save my boat and all my possessions. but I have limited facts and I'm not in a position to judge.
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Old 11-04-2014, 16:52   #1243
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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My understanding is the child was fine at time of rescue..?
...
That's where I believe you have a mis-perception. Child appeared over the worst would be more like it. How could they feel though that all danger was over when they'd already been told the child was ok once and found that not to turn out true? When it's your child you still are in fear. Also, his wife was not fine, doubt his other daughter or even he was. You're talking about a horrible trauma they'd all been through in addition to whatever sickness his wife experienced. Family vs. boat, family wins out. There is only one thing more frightening than nearly losing your child and that is the death of a child. I know people who have experienced that and never been able to regain anything approaching a normal life. So regardless of how strong either parent was they were going through an unimaginable experience. I know it's not one that I can even grasp how awful it was. But I also know in talking to parents who have been there, it's beyond my worst life experience.

I've talked to parents who nearly lost a child to a home accident and they didn't leave the hospital for five days, the mother didn't sleep for two days and the father didn't sleep for over 72 hours until finally the doctors basically forced him to take meds to sleep. All because they were terrified to take their eyes off their child. I know another couple that had a baby to nearly die and they both shut down. The father worked for me. He tried after a week to come to work and he sat at his desk in a daze and then started having tremors. He took six months of counseling before he was able to return. And he was a brave man before, had even raced cars professionally.

We will hear more story at some time, but just thinking of what they went through I find myself anxious and I do know that in those circumstances my boat, my home, anything else would be so totally unimportant in the total scheme of things.
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Old 11-04-2014, 16:58   #1244
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Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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Well, that's the detail we need isnt it? The baby was being cared for by 4 experts on board, the family went into the hands of the US Armed Services and was safe.
Is sailing the boat back "abandoning the family"? If so , better not join others on a 1 week charter without your family! You might get a call from Child Protective Services I guess.... if people like you have their way.
My understanding is the child was fine at time of rescue..?
LET ME BE CLEAR, I'm not knocking any decision they made, only they can make it. I did express my confusion over the latest news though.... it all seemed to make sense with a broken rudder and no engine....

That's not the issue, a decision was made to medivac the child. The family went with her , do you seriously expect anything else to matter. Who cares about the boat. It's utterly irrelevant and I fail to see why you or anyone even brings it up.. It's not a person , it's a (ex) floating piece of plastic.

I don't even understand your silly comment about me and cps. The facts are this Eric decided to prioritise his family over his boat. That is the right and proper thing to do. If you can't see that you're very blind.

I find this nonsense that appears that somehow your less of a person cause you " abandoned " a boat. ( as if it has feelings ) eric simply departed his boat to be with his family.

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Old 11-04-2014, 17:05   #1245
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Re: Forum Member's Boat and Daughter in Trouble off of Mexico

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A truck covers a lot of distance easily IMHO , and it's clear from the blogs, that certainly Charlotte was unprepared. But I agree this isn't the thread for this

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Dave, trucks don't come cheaply for boats that big, and they were somewhat fiscally limited IIRC. And so if they did get to the East coast... why is cruising in the Caribbean better suited to gaining experience than sailing in the SOC and coastal Mexico? Neither one gives you the real long passage experience, both give you lots of sea time and miles in small doses.

I've come to think that their decision to go off on a long passage with the kids was premature, but I can understand how it came to be made. I reckon that Eric may have now come to the same conclusion, and it will be very interesting to hear his thoughts when he is ready to offer them to us.

Meanwhile, I hope that they are healing.

Cheers,

Jim
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