Flying a Staysail

[sparrowhawk1]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Sparrowhawk...OK I understand what you have. You've told me you have a baby stay and you do not need support for that stay other than your lowers which is spot on however your baby stay is not a stay sail stay. Baby stays are for tweaking the shape in your main sail by pulling the mast forward and flattening the lower portion of the main which you might do beating to windward in a good breeze. These stays are not meant to fly a sail on.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. The first two boats( I've had a total of three boats this way) I added the stay specifically for a staysail. My current boat came that way and it is definitely Not for tweaking the mast. I agree that most boats that have baby stays probably have it for tweaking purposes. There is a mechanical advantage by having it farther forward. And on small boats it simplifies things replacing the forward lower shrouds.

[robert sailor]

Actually baby stays don't work on boats with double lowers as you can't get bend in the mast. So baby stays are only for boats with single lowers.

[savoir]

The only purpose of a baby stay was to reduce pumping in the mast of a racing boat when sailing to windward. Boats with a cruising specific mast should not need one.

[cortezsailor]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Third reef in the main is a good idea, ditch the trisail.

I agree on the 3 rd reef in the main but I wouldn't dump a storm jib nor would I put a reef in a staysail. A storm jib will usually be a heavier weight then you re staysail and from my experience a reefed staysail has the danger of coming out on you and is very difficult to keep tidy on deck.

[robert sailor]

Savoir is correct in that the baby stay does stop the mast from pumping in certain conditions and it is a way for a builder to use 1 stay to replace the double lowers however the baby stay is also used to shape the mainsail. Some cruisers have a fixed babystay and its used to stop the pumping and no adjustment is available but many racer cruisers have the baby stay mounted on a track with the adjusting lines lead aft that allow you to vary the tension forward as well as remove all tension.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Jcolman

My 30 C&C came with a staysail but not the halyard or forestay to hoist it. Having never flown one before, I'm not sure if I want to spend the money to be able to fly it. My understanding is that it's generally flown with the spinnaker on a broad reach. I don't really plan on doing a lot of racing on this boat but you never know. If I can get a crew together, maybe I can make a 40 year old boat competitive again.

The bigger question is does anyone use a staysail while cruising? And if so, when? I have three other jibs I can hoist so it's not like I really need a staysail.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the previous owner simply bought a used smaller jib to use as a small or storm jib and it happened to be a staysail from some boat and so the bag is labeled "staysail".

Just haul it up your forestay one day and see what it does for you in varying conditions. If the shape does not work for your boat, consider having it recut for a specific purpose. Having a sail cut down is relatively inexpensive.

[Jcolman]

Originally Posted by Suijin

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the previous owner simply bought a used smaller jib to use as a small or storm jib and it happened to be a staysail from some boat and so the bag is labeled "staysail".

Just haul it up your forestay one day and see what it does for you in varying conditions. If the shape does not work for your boat, consider having it recut for a specific purpose. Having a sail cut down is relatively inexpensive.

My boat also came with a spinnaker and pole so I'm guessing that one of the PO raced the boat at one time.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Jcolman

Thanks. Yes, my staysail has a wire luff. Since the staysail isn't as tall as a jib, do I need a staysail halyard or can I use my jib halyard?

The wire luff attaches to the staysail halyard, which is probably 3/4trs up the mast and may double as the pole guy. The staysail tack is probably a padeye on deck. Given it's a IOR-style C&C 30, the foredeck may be longish and it's a genoa staysail. This is used on long reaching legs with the genoa or a No.2 genoa to create a slot (in some cases the genoa staysail is tacked to the toerail) that gives extra drive.

Don't write it off, but do read sail tactics books from the '70s and '80s that explain why, how and when these sails are used.

[Jcolman]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

The wire luff attaches to the staysail halyard, which is probably 3/4trs up the mast and may double as the pole guy. The staysail tack is probably a padeye on deck. Given it's a IOR-style C&C 30, the foredeck may be longish and it's a genoa staysail. This is used on long reaching legs with the genoa or a No.2 genoa to create a slot (in some cases the genoa staysail is tacked to the toerail) that gives extra drive.

Don't write it off, but do read sail tactics books from the '70s and '80s that explain why, how and when these sails are used.

Thanks. Yes, there is a padeye on the foredeck. I assumed that it was for the staysail and spinnaker downhaul. I think I could use the spinnaker pole topping lift as a staysail halyard when not flying the kite. Once I get the running rigging replaced I'll give it a shot.

[JazzyO]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Savoir is correct in that the baby stay does stop the mast from pumping in certain conditions and it is a way for a builder to use 1 stay to replace the double lowers however the baby stay is also used to shape the mainsail. Some cruisers have a fixed babystay and its used to stop the pumping and no adjustment is available but many racer cruisers have the baby stay mounted on a track with the adjusting lines lead aft that allow you to vary the tension forward as well as remove all tension.

Exactly right, this is the way the baby is used on my Baltic 38DP. Her mast is tapered at the top, with a hydraulic backstay and rod rigging to allow for quite serious bending of the mast to depower the sail above the first spreader. The baby stay helps to keep the lower half of the mast rigid and straight. For the same reason she has double lowers. This was a serious machine in the '80ies.


Onno

[savoir]

There is no need for both double lowers and a babystay. Simplify your life by flicking the babystay. Set the lowers to a small amount of prebend and leave them. You will have to keep using your runners when it blows a little - probably 15 knots +.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by Jcolman

Thanks. Yes, there is a padeye on the foredeck. I assumed that it was for the staysail and spinnaker downhaul. I think I could use the spinnaker pole topping lift as a staysail halyard when not flying the kite. Once I get the running rigging replaced I'll give it a shot.

There are two ways to see what the padeye was meant for.

1. Look under the foredeck for a tang from the padeye to the keel. If there is one then the fitting was built for a genoa staysail. The fitting should be 3 - 4 feet aft of the forestay.
2. If there is no tang then the system was either poorly built or meant for attaching a foreguy. This type of fitting will be 1 - 2 feet aft of the forestay.

Spinnaker staysails didn't have a dedicated padeye. They were mounted on the windward toe rail about 2 feet aft of the pulpit.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by Jcolman

Thanks. Yes, there is a padeye on the foredeck. I assumed that it was for the staysail and spinnaker downhaul. I think I could use the spinnaker pole topping lift as a staysail halyard when not flying the kite. Once I get the running rigging replaced I'll give it a shot.

The spinnaker/cruising spinnaker downhaul, or rather, the tack line, would typically run through a block at the stemhead running fair forward of the pulpit. Unless you mean that's where a second block would go to keep the line close to the deck or something...I've never wanted a second block there personally, but I douse the spinnaker early in cruise mode.

If you start to actually use that staysail padeye in the future, I would give you the standard advice for a C&C owner of all but the most recent vintage: check the deck for wetness/delamination, and put a great big load-spreading backing plate under the padeye.

[Jcolman]

Thanks guys. I've attached a couple pics I snapped during the survey showing the pad eye I'm talking about.

First a wide shot.



next a close up. You can see the pad eye in the center.



I don't know if this has a tang to the keel, I rather doubt it as I didn't see one (but I wasn't looking for one either last time I was on the boat) The deck is solid around the fitting, nice sharp sounds when I did a tapping test.

I also assume that the fairlead just above the padeye in the photo was for a roller reefing line, although my boat has hanked on sails.

[FlightPlan]

There is a lot of advice here and it is very confusing at this point and I'm certain the OP is scratching his head to determine whether to use a staysail or not.

There are so many variables in rigs and they are set up to the designer's purpose on any given boat. To say lowers are not necessary will not apply to every boat design. So I suggest the OP find out if he has a sloop, cutter rigged sloop etc. and start there. I have a high aspect ratio cutter rigged sloop for instance. It has two shrouds in line with the mast port and starboard. One goes to the top of the mast, and the second goes to the upper spreader attachment point on the mast. I have a forward lower and an aft lowers that attach to the mast at the lower spreaders. All of these hold the mast in column. The baby stay as I call it, others will call it the forestay, or staysail stay, is attached to the mast at the upper spreader and runs to the foredeck parallel to the jib stay. I have running backstays lead from the upper spreaders to a turning block attached to a pad eye in the stern of the boat deck. These are controlled by the spinnaker winches. The weather side running back is always tensioned when flying the stay sail. Even with my forward and aft lowers, the mast pumps without the running backstays. Now to top all of that off, I have a hydraulic backstay used to improve jib stay tension. All of this was designed and built by Ted Hood. The operative words in my rig are high aspect ratio which Mr. Hood explained to me is why it is considered a performance cruiser.

I went thru all that so that the forum needs to be more specific about the rig design they are comparing to when saying you don't need a baby stay, only a wire rope luff sail, or you don't need running back stays, or just use your spinnaker halyard fore a baby stay. In optimal conditions, all that might work fine until less than optimal conditions come into play. A broken mast at sea is a dangerous thing to deal with when the wind and seas are acting up.

If the C & C 30 is truly a cutter rig sloop, then I would use the staysail when close reaching and beating to the wind. You will get more power and be able to carry less or reefed headsail in higher wind velocities. You can roll up the headsail and use the staysail in stormy conditions with a reefed main as I have done often. And finally, you are more likely to be hove to better with the staysail and reefed main.

I didn't discuss fractional rigs because if you tried a staysail on that design, it would be a real homemade system. I highly recommend working with the design intended by the manufacturer and get a good sail loft to help with the combinations you will need.