Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-11-2013, 11:17   #16
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Flares no longer needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
Regarding red ones, it really does blow me away that we're talking about saving a minuscule amount of money (by any standard other than a third world goat herding nomad)
This argument is always used for safety equipment, but no boat has all the possible alternatives. We all make decisions about what is reasonable and prioritise based on our sailing conditions and our own perceptions about what is important.

It is wrong to assume that someone who chooses not to carry equipment you have is simply trying to save money. They might have allocated the same, or more money in a different way.
__________________

__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:26   #17
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
Re: Flares no longer needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Perhaps all countries could follow the UK lead and let people decide for themselves
U.S. does not require flares. It says any in the list. So an orange flag for day and an SOS signaling light for night meets the minimum requirement.

33 CFR 175.110 - Visual distress signals required. | Title 33 - Navigation and Navigable Waters | Code of Federal Regulations | LII / Legal Information Institute

visual distress signals selected from the list in § 175.130 or the alternatives in § 175.135, in the number required, are onboard


33 CFR 175.130 - Visual distress signals accepted. | Title 33 - Navigation and Navigable Waters | Code of Federal Regulations | LII / Legal Information Institute

§ 175.130
Visual distress signals accepted.
(a) Any of the following signals, when carried in the number required, can be used to meet the requirements of § 175.110 :
(1) An electric distress light meeting the standards of 46 CFR 161.013. One is required to meet the night only requirement.
(2) An orange flag meeting the standards of 46 CFR 160.072. One is required to meet the day only requirement.
(3) Pyrotechnics meeting the standards noted in Table 175.130.

(b) Any combination of signal devices selected from the types noted in paragraphs (a) (1), (2) and (3) of this section, when carried in the number required, may be used to meet both day and night requirements. Examples —the combination of two hand held red flares (160.021), and one parachute red flare (160.024 or 160.036) meets both day and night requirements. Three hand held orange smoke (160.037) with one electric distress light (161.013) meet both day and night requirements.
__________________

__________________
cal40john is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:32   #18
Registered User
 
RainDog's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Varies
Boat: Pacific Seacraft 34 #142
Posts: 1,183
Re: Flares no longer needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
this is to save $20 every few years
Hook me up with your source! I just had to replace mine.

I think it is worth splurging for to SOLAS flares:

Caribbean 1500 Flare & Liferaft Safety Demonstration | Sailfeed
RainDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:40   #19
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Flares no longer needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
The world is full of HotRods and Flyin' Hawaiins: gotta lay out the rules.
The boat is USA flagged rather than one of those dangerous countries like the UK with no rules.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	96
Size:	142.5 KB
ID:	69843  
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:47   #20
Registered User
 
sabray's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wash DC
Boat: PETERSON 44
Posts: 3,169
Re: Flares no longer needed?

46 CFR 161, Subpart 161.013 - Electric Distress Light for Boats | Title 46 - Shipping | Code of Federal Regulations | LII / Legal Information Institute
I cant find a light that meets the standard to make it compliant . Or I dont understand what I have read.
__________________
sabray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:49   #21
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
Re: Flares no longer needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabray View Post
46 CFR 161, Subpart 161.013 - Electric Distress Light for Boats | Title 46 - Shipping | Code of Federal Regulations | LII / Legal Information Institute
I cant find a light that meets the standard to make it compliant . Or I dont understand what I have read.
ACR used to make one. It is possible that there currently is not one commercially available, making the law moot for now.

Edit:
Boat US test of non pyrotechnic devices. They weren't impressed, but this thread is more on meeting minimum legal requirements and then carrying what you think is going to get the job done.
http://www.boatus.com/foundation/fin...s45/page12.asp
__________________
cal40john is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:52   #22
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,450
Re: Flares no longer needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
The world is full of HotRods and Flyin' Hawaiins: gotta lay out the rules.
Eric, I don't see where the rules have helped HotRod very much!

And I doubt if your 20 buck flare kit will do much more than satisfy the rules... it isn't likely to enhance your chances of rescue if needed. Even the best of SOLAS flares have a record of all too often being unseen when used in anger.

I would be curious to know how many rescues these days are aided or initiated by flares vs electronic means. Anyone know? Maybe psneel?

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 12:06   #23
Registered User
 
RainDog's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Varies
Boat: Pacific Seacraft 34 #142
Posts: 1,183
Re: Flares no longer needed?

Interesting read: Foundation Findings #45 - Flare Tests Enlightening
RainDog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 14:19   #24
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,967
Re: Flares no longer needed?

You're kidding yourself if you would trust your safety to flares. They are just about useless in maritime distress situations.

The trained crew on the SS California saw multiple distress rockets from the Titanic but still decided it was nothing.

The British Coast Guard now only sends out a Pan-Pan when someone reports a flare sighting (1500 a year) but does nothing else since almost all sightings are false.

Since the Titanic, the best distress signaling system is a radio -- and radios come in many flavors (VHF, Mobile Phone, EPIRB, SSB, SPOT). If you are worried about your radio failing, you are much better off carrying another radio (or two or three) than a pack of flares.

Of corse, the CG requires me to to carry flares and I do - but they're as outdated and useless as the 3 black balls I'm required to carry to display when aground.
__________________
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 15:31   #25
Senior Cruiser
 
senormechanico's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 5,827
Re: Flares no longer needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
The world is full of HotRods and Flyin' Hawaiins: gotta lay out the rules.
I'll bet you a buck the Flyin' Hawaiian doesn't have flares aboard.
__________________
Memento,homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris.
senormechanico is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 17:47   #26
Registered User
 
mischief's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Port Stephens Australia
Boat: Nantucket 33
Posts: 221
Some of you may find the following of interest.

When I took my Coxwain's and during our fire fighting practicals they asked for us to bring in any old flares we had and we could fire them at the facilities in a safe manner. So lots of us brought outdated flares. We put turn out gear (bunker) on and face shields after a visual was checked and fired them off.
Several of smoke, red, some parachutes a few whites etc were fired. None failed. But the most interesting was a fellow brought in a pack that were I believe from early 1980's looked to have been wetted at one point at least a bit but relatively in okay shape. So they rigged it to fire from a remote pull just in case but it worked fine.
Lots of the ones we were letting off were well over 10years old and on that day their was not a single failure. Of corse we were on dry land at the time and Murphy that sneaky bastard was no where to be found or maybe be was helping them go off.
Anyway I thought it was interesting. (BTW they were done in a fire fighting mine safety hanger)

As to the comment of them not being of any use because of the reaction they instill I think that is totally dependent on the situation.

Just let off a flare with nothing else and its true maybe not much will happen.
But have you ever watched I shouldn't be alive? The amount of times people can see the rescuers passing for days but are not found is staggering. If they had a flare it could make all the difference.
Having led flares that are compliant may work but they are directional at least the ones I've seen where as a flare is omnidirectional relatively stable, reliable even out of date in an emergency and doesn't have any batteries corroding inside (I'd definitely want a lithium stable non leaking corrosion proof connected and sealed battery assembly in one.)
At any rate the energy stored and released in a flare will be hard to surpass with batteries. Wash up on shore somewhere and a flare can ignite a signaling fire fairly quickly too.
__________________
mischief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 21:59   #27
Sponsoring Vendor
 
HopCar's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Miami Florida
Boat: Ellis Flybridge 28
Posts: 3,160
Re: Flares no longer needed?

"But have you ever watched I shouldn't be alive? The amount of times people can see the rescuers passing for days but are not found is staggering. If they had a flare it could make all the difference. "

I've read several books by people who spent long periods of time in life rafts. They all seem to have fired multiple flares when ships were visible but the flares were not seen.

"We put turn out gear (bunker) on and face shields after a visual was checked and fired them off."

Flares are dangerous.

"Lots of the ones we were letting off were well over 10years old and on that day their was not a single failure."

I've fired lots of out of date flares and had a lot of failures to fire and most of the ones that did fire seemed to not go as high as they should.

In South Florida, where I live, there is no legal way to dispose of out of date flares.

Those are my reasons for not liking flares.
That said I don't see a viable replacement just yet. The laser flares come pretty close in my opinion.

In this day and age I think a ditch bag with an EPIRB, VHF radio, a signal mirror and a bunch of flares to use when the searchers are in sight should get you rescued pretty quick.

Wouldn't hurt to have a PLB tied to your life jacket as well.
__________________
Hopkins-Carter Marine Supplies & Fishing Tackle
What You Need, at the Price You Want...with Service!
HopCar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 02:04   #28
Registered User
 
mischief's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Port Stephens Australia
Boat: Nantucket 33
Posts: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopCar View Post
"But have you ever watched I shouldn't be alive? The amount of times people can see the rescuers passing for days but are not found is staggering. If they had a flare it could make all the difference. "

I've read several books by people who spent long periods of time in life rafts. They all seem to have fired multiple flares when ships were visible but the flares were not seen.

"We put turn out gear (bunker) on and face shields after a visual was checked and fired them off."

Flares are dangerous.

"Lots of the ones we were letting off were well over 10years old and on that day their was not a single failure."

I've fired lots of out of date flares and had a lot of failures to fire and most of the ones that did fire seemed to not go as high as they should.

In South Florida, where I live, there is no legal way to dispose of out of date flares.

Those are my reasons for not liking flares.
That said I don't see a viable replacement just yet. The laser flares come pretty close in my opinion.

In this day and age I think a ditch bag with an EPIRB, VHF radio, a signal mirror and a bunch of flares to use when the searchers are in sight should get you rescued pretty quick.

Wouldn't hurt to have a PLB tied to your life jacket as well.
I don't disagree with anything you said, I don't think flares infallible either. Just my observations on the day. As far as I know on private property in a pyrotechnic certified covered facility we were not breaking laws. I know that it seems there is no way for the public to let off out of date flares in Australia either but this was not the public. I also agree that although the flares all worked they did show signs of a weaken state. Your comment about letting off multiple flares trying to get a ships attention should speak volumes. It does to me anyway. Have lots of flares! But that's just a ship and nobody may even be on the watch when you fire your flare. I was talking specifically about helping rescuers locate you when they are looking for you. I would not rely solely on an Epirb but that's another topic. Okay think I will be quiet now and just watch from the sidelines.
__________________
mischief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 02:26   #29
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,205
Re: Flares no longer needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mischief View Post
I don't disagree with anything you said, I don't think flares infallible either. Just my observations on the day. As far as I know on private property in a pyrotechnic certified covered facility we were not breaking laws. I know that it seems there is no way for the public to let off out of date flares in Australia either but this was not the public. I also agree that although the flares all worked they did show signs of a weaken state. Your comment about letting off multiple flares trying to get a ships attention should speak volumes. It does to me anyway. Have lots of flares! But that's just a ship and nobody may even be on the watch when you fire your flare. I was talking specifically about helping rescuers locate you when they are looking for you. I would not rely solely on an Epirb but that's another topic. Okay think I will be quiet now and just watch from the sidelines.
Well in the states we let all of our flairs go on the 4th of July, they must be at least 2wice as old as the required. Anything younger we save as back-ups.

lloyd
__________________
FlyingCloud1937 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2013, 02:47   #30
Registered User

Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 143
Re: Flares no longer needed?

I think one of the factors driving this is that disposal of older flares is becoming a problem in the UK. It is getting difficult to get rid of the ones you have whereas there are plenty of people who will sell you a bucket of flares graded as "standard", "coastal" and "ocean". Also with distress data bursts being sent by the radio set, you do have to wonder about the flares usefulness, especially since the data burst will contain the boat's SSR number and position. If you are out of sight of land, I know which I would prefer ...
__________________

__________________
beverley is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:00.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.