Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

[Kanani]

Been there, done that..... twice.

In Jan 1983, I got the idea of sailing around the world, although I had never been on a sailboat in my life.

I calculated out what I thought it would cost me to live for 3 1/2 years while traveling and included all the expenses, I thought, necessary. What I had left, was the $ for a boat and it wasn't all that much.

Not knowing anything about sailboats and knowing that I was the one that would have to conduct any/all repairs while on this journey, I decided to buy a tired boat with a sound hull but in need of a total refit. I found the boat in question and paid $25K for it (in June 1983).

The 1st thing I did was haul the boat out and pull the mast and rigging for inspection. Having found some corrosion in the bottom of the mast, I broke out my handy hacksaw and cut 3" off. I then realized that all of the rigging (and chainplates) would need replacing. I rad a lot and bought a spool of 316 S/S wire, a used hydraulic swage machine and went to work.

I then pulled the "Atomic 4" engine out and found a used Yanmar Diesel. I didn't know anything about the motor so I bought a manual, pulled the motor apart and totally overhauled it. It probably didn't need it but I need the experience.

Then came my 1st experience with fiberglass. The engine didn't fit in the pre-engineered engine cradle in the boat so I cut it all out, down to the bare hull, and F/G a new cradle to fit the Yanmar. I did get help with that from a shipwright that lived on his boat in the yard. He was excited about what I was doing and was glad to teach me how to F/G.

From what I read at the time, it was best to have a rudder that had 3-bearing points. This boat had a spade rudder so I decided to change the rudder configuration to a skeg rudder design. I was so glad that I did because the original rudder post was shockingly thin and partially corroded. This task was a real learning curve for me but I worked my way through it.

I rewired the boat completely and removed all of the old electronics (from the 70s) and installed new electronics of MY choosing. I also replaced all of the thruhull fittings, hoses etc.

In Jan 1984, I set sail for Hawaii (not a smart move in itself). I took many books on sailing and navigation. On the way to Hawaii, I discovered that I chose the wrong time of the year for that voyage but that taught me fowl weather sailing. It also taught me celestial navigation (that's all we had at the time).

In 1988 (after a complete circumnavigation), I returned to Hawaii. Got a job and worked there for 6 years. During that 6-years, I found a Passport 45 ketch that had been wrecked and I bought it for insurance salvage. So..... my (refit) voyage started all over again.

All new rigging, chain plates, overhauled both mastsand the engine, rewired and installed all new electronics (even GPS and radar this time). In May 1994, I set out on my 2nd circumnavigation to return to California in 1999.

I never had any issues with either boat that I couldn't handle myself because I knew my vessels intimately. In the end, I sold both boats (in great condition) for more than what I had in them.

SOOOO!! Would I recommend buying a tired boat and refitting it? Absolutely. It is a confidence builder that nothing can compare to. It's far more trouble free during a voyage and if there is an issue, you would know exactly how to resolve the issue on your own (there are no repair facilities at sea).

[MJH]

Originally Posted by gallatin1988

I am currently looking at a 1978 38' double-ended cutter with an excellent pedigree. Many sisterships have many significant long voyages. She is a purpose built off-shore cruising boat. In terms of type, design and quality, she is the the kind of boat I've looking for. I could easily see me owning this boat for many years.

I've talked to owner and think I can get it for a relative good price though not as cheap as others. I would be the 3rd owner. The current owner has owned the boat for 5 years and not actively sailed the boat in the last 2. Prior to his owning the boat, it sat in the hard for an unknown length of time (my bet is at least 2 years).

The hull (no blisters), deck (no spot spots), spars, rudder, Monitor windvane, and teak interior are all in good to excellent and the bilges are dry. But it is due for a major refit, including possibly a new engine (the current one is the orginal) or a rebuild, new tankage (fresh water and fuel), and new standing rigging and chainplates. There are no electronics to speak of and no roller furling. I want to think to this boat as almost a blank canvas so to speak.

I am fairly handy and have time to commit to the project over the next 2 years. I believe I could do about 50% to 60% of the work myself.

Ballparking it, I think I could spend $40,000 to $50,000 maybe even upwards of $60,000 on this boat. The boat is near me so I wouldn't have to pay move it or move it myself. If I spent $50,000 on the refit it would put me pretty squarely in range of what BUC reports as the historic selling price for the boat in bristol condition.

There are sisterships on the market now with a listing price of what I could spend on the boat in question, though I'd have the additional expense of traveling to see them, moving them and when all is said done still having to possibly undertaking a refit to some degree or another. I'm extremely skeptical of that there really is such a thing a turn-key cruising boat.

Questions:
Those who have undertaken such a project were you glad you did or did you wish you hadn't?
If you passed on the idea what factors went into the decision?
What would you consider absolute deal-killers?
What some of the factors I should take into account in making my decision?
What is the conventional wisdom about this?

Any other insights, ideas, thoughts are welcome.

Thanks,
Sam

How many months/years have you been looking? How many boats have you looked at...you can't look at too many? I looked for five years and ended up buying a boat from across the country.

Boats are about dreams...what are yours, i.e. what do you want to do with this yacht? There are folks who do get satisfying pleasure from ownership alone. Others see their boats simply as a tool for their pleasure, sailing/cruising/racing.

Boats are luxuries not investments. No one comes out ahead if they if properly document all their associated expenses/costs from day one, not including their own labor. I have done that and somewhat taken back by the bottom line number every time I look at it. No matter how diligently you project your expenses, you will spend more, perhaps a lot more...we all do. Are you financially prepared for that?

That said, use your head, follow our heart, bite the bullet and make a decision to buy this boat or continue looking.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[Kanani]

Originally Posted by MJH

How many months/years have you been looking? How many boats have you looked at...you can't look at too many? I looked for five years and ended up buying a boat from across the country.

Boats are about dreams...what are yours, i.e. what do you want to do with this yacht? There are folks who do get satisfying pleasure from ownership alone. Others see their boats simply as a tool for their pleasure, sailing/cruising/racing.

Boats are luxuries not investments. No one comes out ahead if they if properly document all their associated expenses/costs from day one, not including their own labor. I have done that and somewhat taken back by the bottom line number every time I look at it. No matter how diligently you project your expenses, you will spend more, perhaps a lot more...we all do. Are you financially prepared for that?

That said, use your head, follow our heart, bite the bullet and make a decision to buy this boat or continue looking.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

The "Time" invested is more about the total experience of ownership/cruising. You really can't put a number on that. The value is more about experience gained than it is about $ saved by paying someone else to do it.

If we're are talking about someone that is working and just has a boat as a pleasure craft and never intends to make long ocean passages, I agree. You earn the $ at what you do best and pay that $ to someone that does what they do best. However, if we are talking about someone that buys a boat to take to sea on long ocean voyages, the experience and confidence gained by doing it yourself is priceless.

My feeling is, if a person can't fix ANYTHING that might go wrong on a boat while at sea, that person should not be taking that boat to sea..... JMHO.

[BenBowSirocco]

Originally Posted by Charles S

True cost to fix is more like $200,000. Plus your work.
Do you want to sail or work on boat?
And you’ll never get your money back.
A newer boat in good condition is a better choice.
Best wishes
Charles

Would enjoy an explanation for that number you posted. That’s an incredible amount of money for the size yachts we are discussing here.

[olshep]

I would do the essential minimum work to get it sailing then after a few sailing adventures you will know what else needs to be done and what equipment needs to be bought/replaced.

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Perfect assessment, I couldn't have written it better.

Heavy double enders are vastly over rated. A 41 year old boat of fiberglass will have delaminated plywood floors and bulkheads and deeply scoured Ultra violet sun damage everywhere unless it was stored in a barn and if it was it may have 'barn rot'. Why not try to get a 20 year old and save 21 years of deterioration???

[Sailor 99]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The OP is talking about spending a significant amount to fix up a 1978, 41 year old boat. There’s no way he’s going to be dollars ahead of a year 2000 boat that’s 20 years newer. By the time he’d finish the refit, he’ll be at lease 50% upside down financially on the boat.

Most people are upside down on their boats if they have done any upgrading at all. If money was all that mattered I would have tons more dough in the bank if I had never stepped foot on a boat or looked at one.


Money can not buy you happiness, it can only buy you food , shelter, some stuff and freedom to do what you desire.



The only people who make money on boats are builders, dealers and yacht brokers. It has always been this way from what I have heard.

[Sailor 99]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Photos of the OP's prospective boat would be nice...

Not my style of boat but if it is what the OP wants for the long term I really see no problem.

It doesn't sound like a 'project' boat to me... even fitting a new engine isn't a 'project'... its just a job...

I once replaced one of my water tanks ( 200 litre... leaking on one of the welds ).... while the boat was in the water and 'in service'.... took the old tank out one weekend... put the new tank in the following weekend....

This does not sound like a 'project' boat.... 'project' boats are found in paddocks, in chook sheds, or down the skid row end of lesser quality boat yards.

I say go for it.

I must say I never have liked the term Project Boat.


Fact is every boat 10+ old is a bit of a project. Boats are not modern cars that run 8 and 10 years trouble free.


Things break and need fixed. Find me a 20+ year old boat that has actually been used and it will need its nonskid fixed up. Rigging if its a salt boat is every 10-15 years. Winches need cleaned and greased, halyards and other running rig need replaced, canvas dies after 10 years, sails die, bottoms need scrapped. Electronics, such as autopilots and plotters every 10 years at the best. Pumps need replaced.



This is all part of boat owner ship and its part and parcel of what you have to expect if your going to have a proper running boat when your out on the water.



When your out on the water and it breaks, and it is going to, you need to be able to fix it.


I say go for it if that is what you want and you can afford it in both time and money. You live but once and you don't want to get to the end moaning about what you did not do.



BTW. It always costs more than you think. 50k is not that many boat bucks when you start factoring in pilots, sails, pumps, etc.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by gallatin1988

Questions:
Those who have undertaken such a project were you glad you did or did you wish you hadn't?

Absolutely glad we did it, it was the only way we could get the boat we liked.

If you passed on the idea what factors went into the decision?

Buy the boat that excites you, that you love.

What would you consider absolute deal-killers?

If it didn't sail well, that stopped us on a couple of boats

What some of the factors I should take into account in making my decision?

The cost of the refit will be about twice what you think

What is the conventional wisdom about this?

There isn't any

Any other insights, ideas, thoughts are welcome.

See below

Thanks,
Sam

Almost all boats, well used ones anyhow, will need fixing or upgrades, The idea of an affordable turnkey offshore cruising yacht is probably a myth invented by brokers.

If you buy the fixer-upper you will at least know what you've gotten and also a heluva lot about the boat and its systems, when you are through.

I say buy the fixer-upper if you like working on the boat. We did and it worked well for us although we have, over the years, paid for the boat three times over in re-fits (and it has declined in value).

But, (and a big but) conduct your project smartly. As several commenters have said, start sailing it immediately rather then take it out of service for years of work. You can do almost all of your projects in discrete steps and keep sailing.

We sailed our stripped out boat the first week we had it and sailed it continuously for the next ten years while basically doing a total refit which included engine, galley, electronics, ground tackle, deck layout, sails, running rigging, forward compartment, workshop, shower, storage areas, lazerette, tankage (100%) and much much more. In those ten years we paid for the boat and the project and got financially ready for cruising.

Always keep the boat in service.

The reward for this is that you get to enjoy sailing (isn't that why you are buying it?) and what you learn sailing it can be applied to the prioritization and approach to the projects, or if you even actually like the boat.

[Manana5]

We had a similar dilemma - in our case we were choosing between a boat that was far away and needed LOTS of work, and another one in a closer location and much better condition, which we can sail immediately with some minor maintenance. We ended up choosing the latter, but in our case it's because we don't have the time to invest in working on it and we wanted to start sailing like NOW. We have jobs and two young kids so it wasn't realistic to spend months and months working on a boat. If you have the time and think you would enjoy it, I would certainly go for the fixer-upper. One major plus is that you would know your boat inside and out, having checked and rebuilt most of its systems. Your will learn A LOT and will be confident in the quality of the work.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by wingssail

idea of an affordable turnkey offshore cruising yacht is probably a myth invented by brokers

Well, rare anyway.

There do come up instances where a RTW expedition gets abandoned part way,

or health reason other crisis intervenes right toward the end of a years-long restoration upfitting,

and not to be ghoulish, but people do die unexpectedly, family just wants rid of the boat.

Being in no hurry casting a wide net not being too specific about the model you want, it is **possible** to end up being Johnny on the spot, right place right time with cash in hand.

Sometimes a seller in the right frame of mind, just takes a shine to the prospective buyer, maybe short on the cash but they like her and their story, and just give the boat away.

Yes rare, but happens

[Jakatar]

I own a 39 ft 1982 double-ender.

Ask yourself the following questions and answer them truthfully (to yourself):
- Do I want to spend years (yes, years) in the boatyard working?
- Am I really going to cruise the world (e.g. I can cruise the Caribbean in any more modern or even smaller boat)?
- Have I thought about the implications of having a 38' boat that is 47' overall?
- Have I thought about handling this full-keel boat in a marina and paying the extra fees?
- Have I ever cruised/lived/stayed on a sailboat with a small enclosed cockpit compared with a more modern large sugar-scoop cockpit?
- Do I know sailors who have modern boats and those with older boats, who actually USE them? What are their opinions?
- Will I be sailing or living on the boat solo and do you want it to stay that way?
Among other questions.
My opinion boils down to: Most sailors I know seem a lot more satisfied/active on modern boats than on old-school boats.
If you really believe that you'll be going on a long far-off voyage, I think it may be a good idea, but only in terms of safety and aesthetics.

[ZING]

I had a beautiful Alajuela that I fixed up, got nearly perfect. Loved that boat ... and hated it. Now I have a catamaran. There are definitely pluses and minuses to both but I would not go back to the Alajuela.

When I bought the Alajuela I thought it was in pretty good shape and it was but I did need to address a number of things before going cruising. I was very experienced before I bought the boat but boy did I get an education. I would say it was quite a bit more involved and expensive than I projected. After about six months of cruising I got a serious wake up call and went back and spent six more months and made huge progress, including replacing the engine with a new Yanmar 56hp, watermaker, autopilot, a/c, etc...so I know you are looking at a different boat. We then had a great cruise for two years before we decided to get the catamaran which I've had for nearly 15 years.

Regardless of how long you work on the boat the one thing I am sure of is that you will never finish. Take care of the critical safety issues and make some short trips and learn what you really need or want.


The Alajuela is a great boat in many ways but it is unique and certainly has limitations that you are not ever going to get past.


If you have specific questions on Alajuelas feel free to message directly.

[gallatin1988]

Originally Posted by Kanani

Been there, done that..... twice.

In Jan 1983, I got the idea of sailing around the world, although I had never been on a sailboat in my life.

From this thread it seems to me that there are 4 types of people:

1) The Dreamers: who are attracted to the idea of long term long distance cruising but know in their heart of hearts its not really for them

2) The Wannabes: (like myself at the moment) who may or may not ever actually set sail but nonetheless are actively planning and saving. It seems to me it is easy to become permanently stuck in this camp. It is so easy to convince yourself (because sometimes you are right) to not pull the trigger

3) The Derailed: who's dream has been scuttled by life/health changes, spending too much on the boat, spending too much time in the boatyard or have underestimated the amount of effort, time, resourcefulness such a venture/lifestyle change requires. It is always more difficult swim against current. For those for whom the reality proved less appealing than the ideal at least in my opinion have the satisfaction of having done it (better to regret something you have done than something you haven't).

4) The Doers: those who have successfully navigated through types 1 and 2 and avoided type 3. The doers have dreamed the dream and have/are living the dream. I think key to becoming a doer is to realistic and flexible.

Of course, there are people who might find going from one type to another then back or will one foot in one type and the other in different type, so to speak.


The above is a little serious and a lot of just talking off the top of my head with tongue planted firmly in my cheek. Please don't take offense or take it too literally.

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by gallatin1988

Of course, there are people who might find going from one type to another then back or will one foot in one type and the other....

I think you nailed it !!

Certainly best to be in camp #1 (requires a lot of honest introspection, however…) or camp #4 (seems to require a fair amount of moxie – and perhaps a bit of cash, depending on one’s standards). It is all too easy to get stuck cycling back and forth between camps #2 and #3.