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Old 12-05-2019, 08:37   #46
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

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Originally Posted by BenBowSirocco View Post
Thank you dcstrng for keeping this on track. I got involved in the discussion and did not answer the original posters questions at all.

What some of the factors I should take into account in making my decision?
-Does she make your heart sing?
Is there a DIY yard nearby you have access to? Do their work hours correspond with your work schedule?
What type of policies does your current marina have about DIY boat work? Do they charge for contractor access?
Will your significant other (if applicable) become despondent if you spend every hour of free time with the project?
Are there sailing yacht facilities nearby that will help out a DIY? How far a drive?
How long is the DIY work season in your current location?
Focus on your current strengths and skill sets, try to exploit them. Consider the added cost (and benefit) of hiring out things that are outside your confidence.
Thanks. This is the kind of logisitcal info I need to carefully consider. Some of which hadn't come to my mind.

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One last idea: find a build out blog that has the hours spent per project logged on it. Think about that carefully and honestly.
Actually I found this blog: Impetuous Too wehen I was first starting to looking to the Alajuela 38. The refit was on the same boat in the same area the boat I'm looking is located.
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Old 12-05-2019, 08:44   #47
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

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Originally Posted by Kenomac View Post
The OP is talking about spending a significant amount to fix up a 1978, 41 year old boat. There’s no way he’s going to be dollars ahead of a year 2000 boat that’s 20 years newer. By the time he’d finish the refit, he’ll be at lease 50% upside down financially on the boat.
All boat owners are upside down financially the very second they take possession, and that cost of ownership vs. resell value continues to increase over time.

I just put a substantial amt. into a major refit. I don't expect a return on investment...but I know I have a sound vessel and systems that will last me a very long time to come....oh...and I will continue to repair and upgrade as necessary.
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Old 12-05-2019, 10:23   #48
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

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Originally Posted by Discovery 15797 View Post
All boat owners are upside down financially the very second they take possession, and that cost of ownership vs. resell value continues to increase over time
Well put

and that, along with DIY/hassling work hours, is exactly what you're paying for the hours of joy and adventure.

That cost **amortized per year** of ownership usually goes down (at least a little) each year is your numerator, and

the denominator is the hours of joy and adventure you get to enjoy each year. As that hopefully becomes a very large number, that's when you're finally getting a good deal on your "investment", ideally so much so, the fact that you'll get very little back when you sell her becomes unimportant.
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Old 12-05-2019, 13:29   #49
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

One of the best ways to do a refit is while you are sailing the boat.

In other words, do the least amount to get it into the water then sail it during the season and continue the refit in the off season

If you do the total refit first, you may discover after all that work and time that the boat isn't quite what you expected it to be
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Old 13-05-2019, 03:54   #50
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
In other words, do the least amount to get it into the water then sail it during the season and continue the refit in the off season
I wish someone would have hit me upside the head with this excellent advice about 45-50 years ago... sometimes I think I've done way more "sailing" on the hard than on the water...
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Old 13-05-2019, 04:01   #51
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

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I wish someone would have hit me upside the head with this excellent advice about 45-50 years ago... sometimes I think I've done way more "sailing" on the hard than on the water...
Thanks!

I wish I could claim it as my own, but I got it from James Baldwin on his Atom Voyages website

A final word of advice to the novice sailor - resist the temptation to undertake a major refit and extensive modifications on your new old boat right at the start. It's best to make only the obvious repairs needed and go out and sail locally and on some coastal vacation passages to learn exactly what is and what is not needed for you. Otherwise you may end up spending years and many thousands of dollars more than expected modifying your boat and then find out on your first ocean crossing that the boat is not right for you or those great ideas you had during the refurbishment did not work out that well at sea.

It came from this writeup before the Good Old Boat List:

https://atomvoyages.com/planning/goo...oats-list.html
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Old 13-05-2019, 06:38   #52
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstrng View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
One of the best ways to do a refit is while you are sailing the boat.

In other words, do the least amount to get it into the water then sail it during the season and continue the refit in the off season

If you do the total refit first, you may discover after all that work and time that the boat isn't quite what you expected it to be
I wish someone would have hit me upside the head with this excellent advice about 45-50 years ago... sometimes I think I've done way more "sailing" on the hard than on the water...
I wish I could claim it as my own, but I got it from James Baldwin on his Atom Voyages website

A final word of advice to the novice sailor - resist the temptation to undertake a major refit and extensive modifications on your new old boat right at the start. It's best to make only the obvious repairs needed and go out and sail locally and on some coastal vacation passages to learn exactly what is and what is not needed for you. Otherwise you may end up spending years and many thousands of dollars more than expected modifying your boat and then find out on your first ocean crossing that the boat is not right for you or those great ideas you had during the refurbishment did not work out that well at sea.

It came from this writeup before the Good Old Boat List:

https://atomvoyages.com/planning/goo...oats-list.html
Great advice, that I plan to follow.

Maybe a forum admin should make the Baldwin quote some kind of auto-reply to EVERY project boat/refit thread.
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Old 17-05-2019, 06:34   #53
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

True cost to fix is more like $200,000. Plus your work.
Do you want to sail or work on boat?
And you’ll never get your money back.
A newer boat in good condition is a better choice.
Best wishes
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Old 17-05-2019, 07:38   #54
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

Double ended cutter, heavy displacement boats were popular in the 1970', mostly due to marketing and the reputation of the Scandinavian sailing life boats, inshore rescue craft that went out in any weather in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Yes, they could make ocean passages, but also rolled badly in the trade winds, had small cockpits and some of them you sat on the deck with no cockpit coaming and were wet whenever a splash came over the bow. Westsail 32, Atkins Ingrid and the even older Tahiti ketch were typical examples.

You would be much more comfortable with more living space for length overall and more protected cockpit and better all-round sailing ability with a more modern boat.
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Old 17-05-2019, 08:20   #55
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

Cost analysis: I spent $55k on a hanked-on, cutter-rigged 1983 Pacific Seacraft 37 "Crealock" in 2009 during the financial crisis and hired a delivery captain to assist me motoring her through the ICW between Mobile and Kemah. She was clean and had a new bottom job. Spent untold monies and hours prepping her for circumnavigation 65 miles from home - $10k Universal 5432 top job, new main and trysail, symm & asymm spins, stays/shrouds, nav lights, added various safety hard points like extended stern pulpit and cockpit pad eyes, Scanmar windvane, 8-man life raft, 3@85w solar panels, wind gen, new VHF w/command mic, computers & software, WiFi extender, SSB, Pactor modem, radar, AIS, more batteries, more anchors/chain, spares, tools, and a pallet of textured vegetable protein (DO NOT DO THAT). Surveyed $120k. Nov 15, 2011 was the departure goal. We left on the 16th and cruised from one exotic location to another to work on the boat. Everywhere we went, with minor exceptions, there were food, fuel, spares, tools, and toys. Do not take them, except maybe toys. Among annoying costs were the pirates: ATM fees and government visas. Divers Alert Network (DAN) insurance unused. Only serious medical issue was septicemia and injectable antibiotics in the med kit helped. Epi-pen expired unused. AED not missed. On return, put $30k in storm damage repairs to teak cap rails/storm hood, and complete external paint. Added air conditioning and refrigeration to tempt The Admiral to sail, too. I would sell my teeth to do it again. You will know all you need to know to circumnavigate by the time you get to Panama.
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Old 17-05-2019, 08:20   #56
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

I think you should grab the Don Casey book This Old Boat (the latest one). I am reading it and it's very helpful.

The first section deals with exactly this question, and walks you through assessing a realistic budget and time frame for what will be needed on your project boat, which helps you make a sound decision as to buying the boat that needs more vs less.

I believe it summarized the question with this conclusion (and I'm paraphrasing here) but fixing up a boat is great because you will know exactly what is where, why, how it works and what condition it is in, also it will be exactly the boat you want if you plan the refit appropriately. You can address weaknesses and make design improvements based on accrued knowledge of owners with the value of hindsight. You may also be able to save money, which you will know if you make an accurate budget plan ahead of time.

A newer/better condition boat is also great because you will have less work to do, and sometimes less expense. You also could be sailing sooner, which can be worth a lot.

Either way you win, as long as you make sure you have all the information you need to make an honest decision.

Good luck!

https://www.amazon.com/This-Old-Boat...20087395&psc=1
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Old 17-05-2019, 08:28   #57
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

Lots of food advice here, mine is: go sailing! I haven’t heard you say exactly what kind of sailing you want to do but it seems from your responses you just want to do some weekend sailing and maybe a few longer local trips or are you planning to circumnavigate right away? Do you have three kids and a wife you want to trundle along in high comfort or are you good roughing it a bit or dealing with problems as they come up? I’ve been working on a few boat projects now and can’t remember the last time I went sailing. That’s on my choices and a serious health issue but I can say I really wish I had bought a boat I could have gone sailing in instead of starting that first project. I agree with Baldwin and I would also suggest that maybe you could start with a smaller more accessible boat. I don’t know what it’s like down there but 30 footers are a dime a dozen up here and there’s much to be said for a smaller boat if you’re just out for the weekend by yourself or with a lady friend. They’re way less stress, much easier to handle, and fittings are cheaper and easier to replace. Whatever boat you buy the trick is being able to see what’s wrong with it with the eye of how many hours and resources it will take to make it right enough to go sailing. This can be won through years of hard work and toil in the boatyard wishing you were sailing or sailing and fixing things as you go. Don’t be afraid to start small, it’s amazing how much fun can be had on a Catalina or Alberg 30 that really owes you nothing, and with a little bit of spit and polish can be sold for enough money to trade up from. But this does really come down to what kind of sailing you want to do and when you want to do it. All the best!
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Old 17-05-2019, 09:03   #58
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Fox View Post
I think you should grab the Don Casey book This Old Boat (the latest one). I am reading it and it's very helpful.

The first section deals with exactly this question, and walks you through assessing a realistic budget and time frame for what will be needed on your project boat, which helps you make a sound decision as to buying the boat that needs more vs less.

I believe it summarized the question with this conclusion (and I'm paraphrasing here) but fixing up a boat is great because you will know exactly what is where, why, how it works and what condition it is in, also it will be exactly the boat you want if you plan the refit appropriately. You can address weaknesses and make design improvements based on accrued knowledge of owners with the value of hindsight. You may also be able to save money, which you will know if you make an accurate budget plan ahead of time.

A newer/better condition boat is also great because you will have less work to do, and sometimes less expense. You also could be sailing sooner, which can be worth a lot.

Either way you win, as long as you make sure you have all the information you need to make an honest decision.

Good luck!
Thanks. I already have that book and a couple of others by Casey on my bookshelf.

The reason I started this thread was to gather additional data points. I am trying to get as much info as I can from as many different sources as I can in an attempt to impose some rational, critcal thinking to what is both a rational and emtional decision.
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Old 17-05-2019, 10:04   #59
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

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Originally Posted by Jedi View Post
Lots of food advice here, mine is: go sailing! I haven’t heard you say exactly what kind of sailing you want to do
Since you asked, my wife and I plan is roughly this:
1) Get a boat
Folow the advice given by James Baldwin (via thomm225)
2) Do what is minimally required to get her in good enough shape to sail her for a season
3) Make a list of what needs/has to be done and improvemnets I want to make
4) Prioritze the list
4) Start making those repairs and improvements while sailing the boat as much as possible
5) Modify the list as I get to know her better
6) Make increasing longer trips
7) Cast off the lines for some longer term cruising to both popular and extremely out of the way places when my wife retires and my step-daughter is off to college in 2 to 3 years.

Also, I would like to crew as much as possible during that time.

I haven't sailed much in the past 15 years or so. But back in the mid-90's I spent 2.5 yrs crewing and delivering boats including a trips from Miami to Vancouver, B.C. via the Panama canal, Boston to Bermuda, Tampa to Corpus Christi in a variety boats from modern to classic designs. Though when all is said and done I consider myself an intermediate sailor.

I have never owned a boat.
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Old 17-05-2019, 10:06   #60
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Re: Fixer-up vs Ready-To-Go

I am a broker and a sailor. I have all kinds of boats for sale, some that have been used and loved, and could use some money spent on them, a couple that were years-long projects intended to go from fresh water Georgian Bay Ontario to blue-water Caribbean live-aboards, only to have their owners fall on health issues and never experience their dream. These boats have had Thousands of dollars spent on them, money that will never be realized. They are absolutely turn-key boats, but are sitting here because although they are perfect, they are older, not-so-popular boats and the market for true blue-water boats, like the couple of double-enders I have for instance, is limited here.
My advice, buy the best boat you can afford Now and go sailing. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. Once you have time on the water and experienced whatever you'd like to change ie: tankage, power, sails, prioritize and tackle one challenge at a time. You can sail a boat while replacing the water tanks, etc.
Life is short. Go sailing. Leave the building to others. Oh, you might want to buy a boat from someone who has blown their brains out financially building their dream boat only to have a health issue befall them. Let someone else pay for your upgrades. In both MHO and my expert one.
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