Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-12-2014, 17:11   #16
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,892
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

With an unknown stability profile

Before launching
Put about 300Ibs of moveable balast in the lowest part of the bilge as security.

Put 4 easily readable temporary draft marks on Port/Starboard/ bow/stern

Close all seacocks and any tank vents

Close all doors and hatches (especially at stern

Choose a ramp with a gradual incline

Launch slowly

Inspect bilges for leaks.

Once satisfied... Shift to a slip and secure with 4 loose lines on each corner

Note draft marks and trim.
Fill any empty tanks (Open vents) measure draft again

Then fill boat to cruising weight and remove most/all ballast that keeps boat nicely balanced at dock always keeping waterline below drains.

Do dock trials then sea trials at 100% LOAD
__________________

__________________
Pelagic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2014, 17:19   #17
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,704
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

Cadence,

FWIW, I don't want to make tat feel terrified, but I do think often land based people do not ask themselves the question, "what could possibly go wrong?"

Posts like Pelagic's above take that question into account and address it directly. I think it's a far more helpful post than any of mine, for instance. Here it is, again:

With an unknown stability profile

Before launching
Put about 300Ibs of moveable balast in the lowest part of the bilge as security.

Put 4 easily readable temporary draft marks on Port/Starboard/ bow/stern

Close all seacocks and any tank vents

Close all doors and hatches (especially at stern

Choose a ramp with a gradual incline

Launch slowly

Inspect bilges for leaks.

Once satisfied... Shift to a slip and secure with 4 loose lines on each corner

Note draft marks and trim.
Fill any empty tanks (Open vents) measure draft again

Then fill boat to cruising weight and remove most/all ballast that keeps boat nicely balanced at dock always keeping waterline below drains.

Do dock trials then sea trials at 100% LOAD


__________________

__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2014, 17:25   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 64
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tat View Post
I have a 22ft fibreglass cabin cruiser which is to be used, at least at first, on inland navigable waterways.

I have re-fit it out completely. I am new to boats, totally new.

The boat is on a trailer. There is a local marina with a slipway, which I can use.

The only concern i have is that it might capsize then or later if I don't have the ballast right. Is this a thing I should concern myself with?

When i got the boat and stripped it out there was small bags filled with sand crammed into the little space there was below the floor, some steel stakes, too, and in the bow was six 56 pound weights, I guess to level it all up.

I would be very greatful for any thoughts anyone might have about this matter, however much or little they may know about the subject.

If there is anything you think you need to know from me before you can comment, then ask away.

tat
Hey Tat, it is very unlikely your boat is going to turn turtle on you, they don't make them that tender, especially your kind of boat. What you removed was basically trimming weight added to get the boat to perform better than without. Like getting the bow down so she'd plane better or to right a little port or starboard list. Does the boat have adjustable trim tabs on the transom? Do they work? These are what powered boats like you have usually use to trim the boat while it is running at speed.On some older boats you have to adjust them manually by loosening and re=tightening various bolts after trying the tab setting out, most newer boats have electrical-hydraulic adjusters so you do your levelling and fore and aft trim adjustments on the fly as the size of boat you have can be pretty sensitive to changes of where weight is situated in the boat like food, coolers full of ice and refreshments, people, water, spare fuel containers, chain, anchours, or other gear brought aboard for a trip. You really don't want to be moving bags full of sand or metal ingots around every time you head out just to trim the rig! all that weight up front is not such a good thing as it can adversely affect how the boat handles in varying wave conditions, as far as pitching when bucking or quartering into it or yawing and broaching when taking it on the stern quarters or transom. See what she looks like floating, look at other boats of the same type and size and compare how yours looks. Put all the heavier stuff you intend to carry most of the time onto the boat, fill the gas tank, water tank(s), then look at it again. is it still looking level from side to side ? Does it look overly deeply laden in the stern? Unlike most sailcraft, "cabin-cruisers" don't usually have a designated waterline that they are supposed to float at when not moving through the water, so any paint lines they may have really don't mean a lot when trying to judge if she's loaded properly to get the best handling out of her underway. Some boats have had various re-builds over several owners and the original size and location of the heavier components she was built with may have changed, this makes it a guessing game as to what changes you may have to make to get her nack on an even keel as they say. Good luck with that!
__________________
shipleft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2014, 21:34   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 523
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

Hi Tat - sounds like you could have a lot of fun on that boat.

I would agree with every thing that has been said - maybe I can add to it a little.

I can not see why any cabin cruiser should need ballast added IF it has been used and modified within it original designed specs. What often happens with boats such as yours is that larger motors have been added to the boat post production. This would have the effect of adding weight at the stern and increasing the tendency for the back of the boat to burry when under power. The additional effect of heavily weighting a boat at the stern is that the effect of water from rain is going to have a greater effect and increasing the chance of sinking the boat. The 6 weights in the bow of the boat suggests that a PO has increased the motor size. With most boats the advantages of increased power is at least partially offset by increased fuel consumption and increased wake.

Without knowing your boat or having photos we have to guess a lot and answer question that might otherwise not need answering.

If we assume that the boat has an out board I would make several recommendation

Launch the boat the first time without any "ballast and without the motor. Hopefully the boat will sit bow down. Add the 56 pound weight at the stern until the boat sits level. This might give you an idea of a suitable weight for an outboard that will not require counterbalancing at the bow.

Secondly I would add you weight to the side of the boat - stand on the gunnels because if a 22 foot boat can not handle that .....

2 stupid points because I have seen both MANY times - of course I have never done either make sure that you have hold of a line that IS attached to the boat and that any drain hole in the stern IS fitting with its plug
__________________
2 Dogs
justwaiting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2014, 04:23   #20
Registered User
 
cajucito's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Tipperary & Dublin Ireland
Boat: Beneteau 44cc
Posts: 83
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

I had a similar Boat before I got the sailing bug. On a boat like this I would say that floatation is more important than ballast. But whoever put the ballast in probably did it for a good reason. The suggestion that it was put their to compensate for added weight higher up sounds very logical to me. My first port of call will be to locate the previous owner or even the one before that and find out who put it there and why. When refitting I was perplexed to find hundreds of small plastic bottles with tightly screwed on caps both under the floor, in the bow at both sides of the stern and along the sides behind seats. The previous owner explained they were floatation chambers and if the boat ever hit a log or a rock at speed and the hull was breached and water started coming in then only a small number of the bottles will get punctured and the intact ones will keep you afloat giving you time to seal the hole and pump out. I always felt very safe in that boat. Thankfully it was never put to the test.
__________________
cajucito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2014, 09:13   #21
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,063
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Cadence,

FWIW, I don't want to make tat feel terrified, but I do think often land based people do not ask themselves the question, "what could possibly go wrong?"

Posts like Pelagic's above take that question into account and address it directly. I think it's a far more helpful post than any of mine, for instance. Here it is, again:

With an unknown stability profile

Before launching
Put about 300Ibs of moveable balast in the lowest part of the bilge as security.

Put 4 easily readable temporary draft marks on Port/Starboard/ bow/stern

Close all seacocks and any tank vents

Close all doors and hatches (especially at stern

Choose a ramp with a gradual incline

Launch slowly

Inspect bilges for leaks.

Once satisfied... Shift to a slip and secure with 4 loose lines on each corner

Note draft marks and trim.
Fill any empty tanks (Open vents) measure draft again

Then fill boat to cruising weight and remove most/all ballast that keeps boat nicely balanced at dock always keeping waterline below drains.

Do dock trials then sea trials at 100% LOAD


Ann,

Your post makes sense. Not over done.

I wish he would post a pic or a mfg. name.

Everything is speculation without more info..
__________________
Cadence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2014, 16:26   #22
tat
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: west yorkshire
Boat: cabin cruiser 22ft
Posts: 65
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

I didn't add the weight high, just low, floor and lockers, though the curtains are heavier, lined, which I regret throwing the old ones, gingham green, moss on them but with a good wash they would have been very nice. I knew at the time, but at that time | had to be in ruthless mode, to keep the curtains i'd have kept so much that the project would have become stuck. So it just one of them; but a heartfelt regret.

regarding a PFD (i assume it is a life jacket), I take the subject of water very very very seriously, especially with whiskey (just a joke; don't drink it), but it is a very serious business. We have a life jacket each and a lifebuoy each, and I am planning on a dinghy, as the boat came with some davits (I think they are called).. I have a lot to learn, and much I never will. I will not extend myself. Tidal rivers, estuaries, the sea, all are a very very serious business. Thankfully i have a brain that says 'don't dabble in what you don't know, when the stakes are that high'.

It is a production boat, a good one, so it should be ok.

No, it hasn't been modified. It is just a little simple boat. If you google norman boats appreciation society you will see the exact type of boat at the top of the site, the one with the little round window.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
Pics would be helpful. Never heard of that type of ballast in a 22' skiff.


Maybe it was designed to carry kilos and the sand replaces the drugs. Just being a wise ass.


Maybe someone added the weight forward to get her over the hump and on a plane? Trim tabs or re wheeling might be better if that is the case.
Yes, drug running, what a thought, there will be plenty of boats at this very moment in time with drugs packed in the hull. It's a big world out there, a different world. It is sort of humbling in a way. I could be wrong about this, but I just think that there are a load of nutters out there who just do not know they are nutters, functioning nutters. I mean, some people might say that i lead a very dull and boring life, but i don't, I'm very happy and interested in all kinds of things. Living in the western world, well why would anyone really need to resort to running drugs, etc, etc. To be frank, I think it is a question of intelligence.

I have quite a bit of time to reply, so going to have a break now.......a break.....a beer, in truth. but then more later.
__________________
tat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2014, 16:41   #23
cruiser

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: North Charleston, SC
Boat: Camano Troll
Posts: 4,669
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

The fact that you don't know what a "PFD" is, tells me you are pretty new to boating yet you apparently bought a boat and proceeded to modify it without testing it or having it surveyed first. You would have done better to test the boat and get some experience with it before making modifications.

If your boat is one like on the website you mentioned, you would do far better asking for advice there, especially about the ballast.

Obviously, you've done what you've done and see no potential problems with your modifications so I wish you luck. Be safe and wear that PFD.
__________________
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2014, 16:52   #24
tat
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: west yorkshire
Boat: cabin cruiser 22ft
Posts: 65
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
You really said a mouthful!

tat, tat, tat--you sound like you'd be an interesting guy to have a drink with. Being totally new to boats, you bought one, totally stripped it out and refitted it. ??? I don't know whether to admire you or just be amazed.

a64 also gave you a good piece of advice...get a knowledgeable person to look it over. Not some old guy dressed in a pirate costume. If you were smart you would have taken photos before removing ballast and stripping out the boat. If you expect good advice, here, you will post some photos of inside and out. And please let us know how you plan to use this.
You've lost me a bit there, Terra, like it is in coded code.

I did take photos of it all in great detail.....in my head.
__________________
tat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2014, 17:35   #25
tat
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: west yorkshire
Boat: cabin cruiser 22ft
Posts: 65
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Hi, again, tat,

You know, Terra Nova's edging up to an issue none of us have yet addressed directly: with zero experience, you seem to be approaching adding water to caravanning as if you haven't considered the possible effects of being on the water. Water is not humans natural environment, we're pretty susceptible to drowning. The suggestion above for you to wear a PFD was based on helping you survive. This is supposed to be fun, but for re-launching a boat you don't understand, pay really close attention to how it can go pear-shaped on you. The warnings are in the posts, but more implicit than explicit.

The big question is what happens if it turns turtle? Who's in the way? Who gets hurt? How much do you lose?
No, I ment that the experience of caravaning was in regards to the layout of the domestic quarters and battery, etc. It is a whole new world. But thank you for making the distinction, as we don't know eachother yet, and it has to be said, such is the importance, the seriousness, of water.

I think you are a really nice person, Ann. You don't happen to be a size 8, single, and make a great steak pudding, chips and peas? http://youtu.be/DVob1D8WlBM
__________________
tat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2014, 17:38   #26
tat
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: west yorkshire
Boat: cabin cruiser 22ft
Posts: 65
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
Ann, this all sounds over blown. Talking about launching a 22' boat off a trailer, Unless the boat is someone's wet dream, it should be a piece of cake. The sand bags and all is perplexing. Yep, if he can't swim a PFD probably is a good idea. He needs to set the parking brake on his vehicle.

Lets not make him paranoid.
I'm ok, mate.
__________________
tat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2014, 17:46   #27
tat
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: west yorkshire
Boat: cabin cruiser 22ft
Posts: 65
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
With an unknown stability profile

Before launching
Put about 300Ibs of moveable balast in the lowest part of the bilge as security.

Put 4 easily readable temporary draft marks on Port/Starboard/ bow/stern

Close all seacocks and any tank vents

Close all doors and hatches (especially at stern

Choose a ramp with a gradual incline

Launch slowly

Inspect bilges for leaks.

Once satisfied... Shift to a slip and secure with 4 loose lines on each corner

Note draft marks and trim.
Fill any empty tanks (Open vents) measure draft again

Then fill boat to cruising weight and remove most/all ballast that keeps boat nicely balanced at dock always keeping waterline below drains.

Do dock trials then sea trials at 100% LOAD
Thank you very much for that advice. It naturally is a weight on my mind, after finding all at weight in the hull. You know your onions. I salute you. thanks.
__________________
tat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2014, 17:55   #28
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,713
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

Did you consider weight distribution when you refitted? i.e. if all your heavy stuff such as batteries, water & fuel tanks etc are on one side or well forrard/aft of the centre of buoyancy, you could well have to put some of that ballast back in. Also, is it an inboard or outboard engine. If it had a heavy outboard hanging off the transom, much of that ballast may have been to trim it back to level fore and aft.
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2014, 18:03   #29
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,892
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

Looking at that Norman website.... You have nothing to worry about.

They are a production river/canal boat that are designed as a low profile stable platform that can handle frequent groundings on river banks as well as ramp launchings.

So very stable to begin with

Just guessing, but the bags of sand you found on board may have be put their to use on the car if you needed better wheel traction on a slimy ramp.

Their own dedicated forum should be more useful than here.

Enjoy your new toy
__________________
Pelagic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-12-2014, 18:10   #30
tat
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: west yorkshire
Boat: cabin cruiser 22ft
Posts: 65
Re: First launch and ballast advice please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Cadence,

FWIW, I don't want to make tat feel terrified, but I do think often land based people do not ask themselves the question, "what could possibly go wrong?"

Posts like Pelagic's above take that question into account and address it directly. I think it's a far more helpful post than any of mine, for instance. Here it is, again:

With an unknown stability profile

Before launching
Put about 300Ibs of moveable balast in the lowest part of the bilge as security.

Put 4 easily readable temporary draft marks on Port/Starboard/ bow/stern

Close all seacocks and any tank vents

Close all doors and hatches (especially at stern

Choose a ramp with a gradual incline

Launch slowly

Inspect bilges for leaks.

Once satisfied... Shift to a slip and secure with 4 loose lines on each corner

Note draft marks and trim.
Fill any empty tanks (Open vents) measure draft again

Then fill boat to cruising weight and remove most/all ballast that keeps boat nicely balanced at dock always keeping waterline below drains.

Do dock trials then sea trials at 100% LOAD


'I think it's a far more helpful post than any of mine, for instance.' You are just like me, concerned only with what is right and true with the matter. Respect.
__________________

__________________
tat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lease

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ballast/displacement ratio, and capsize screening ratio openseas Monohull Sailboats 6 28-05-2014 20:43
Launch of the First Exploration 45 : Jimmy Cornell's New Boat Seaworthy Lass Monohull Sailboats 16 20-04-2014 23:10
The first of many questions while preparing to launch my pocket cruiser Captain Grandpa Challenges 31 21-01-2013 15:19
First Boat and First Project - Advice welcome Minisail Monohull Sailboats 3 20-06-2012 12:03
Keel Types and Ballast ? bdurham Monohull Sailboats 13 15-09-2011 23:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:35.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.